Ritual Postures, Ritual body Postures, Ancient Ritual Postures

Celtic Mythology in Western Spirituality – Guests: John & Caitlín Matthews

John and Caitlin Matthews (pronounced “Kathleen” in Gaelic) are respected researchers and authors in the Shamanic, Celtic and Arthurian traditions and have opened doors to a re-appreciation of the mythic heritage of the Western World.

Speaker 1:
0:00

Welcome to the queen monkey institutes Q and a conversation for exploration where your hosts Lauralee and Paul Roberto

Speaker 2:
0:27

[inaudible] .

Speaker 3:
0:28

Hello, and welcome to the monkey institutes question and answer conversation for exploration series. I'm Paul Ravera , the executive director and president of the Institute. We see many familiar faces in the room today, but we also see many new faces in attendance. So let me just tell you briefly about the Institute itself and our mission. The Meghan Institute is an independent non-profit organization. It's committed to transforming consciousness through the ancient practice of ecstatic trans postures. And our mission at the Institute is to introduce, sustain and support the practice of research of trans States, which we believe were once wildly enjoyed by our early ancestors worldwide. It was the insightful work of Dr. Felicitas Goodman who found the clues and revived this practice. She looked at some of the oldest evidence available the world's collection of early in indigenous art and decoded selected artifacts as ritual instructions. And as part of our mission of the Institute is to expand our own experiential research with the academic understandings that are available to us today. Dr. Goodman provided us a roadmap of how someone with a scientific academic approach can delve deeply into the world of direct experience. And of course we recognize that no educational institution can thrive alone. So we take an open approach and we're inviting scholars of parallel research and related fields that help broaden the scope of our research and our exploration. And if you haven't been with us for the last several months, we've had recent discussions for the full spectrum of topics. We've talked about the acoustical connections between the earth and the human brain, sacred space, neuroscience, anthropology, archeology, and sacred sites where science meets spirituality, the ancient worldwide tradition of mass making. We talked about universal trans stance , the full spectrum indications of trans States. We talked about Catholicism, mysticism and train States. We had a panel discussion on shamanism. We've talked about the history of trans around the world from past the present and ancient astronomy, creating your own selector of markers at your own home and the full spectrum of consciousness raising techniques. So today we want to take a closer look at something. We find very interesting, the shamonic roots of Western spirituality, and to introduce today's guests . Let me turn it over to my wife. Who's my partner on this journey of exploration. Loralee thank you, Pam .

Speaker 4:
3:12

Thank you for being here. And I just want to say that the chance to explore things that come up is so exciting and to do that with many, many researchers, in some ways it feels like we're in a Twilight of an era, doesn't it? You raise your hand if it does. And what I mean by that is we're defined by our collective and our express core values. Our worldviews are overarching agendas and activities. Um, it feels like we are really coming into a sea change. Um, and , and I know human kind has been here before shifts happen in culture technology worldview. And I think that we're slowly coming around full circle to acknowledge and respect our ancient ancestors, the world over and their take on reality, their fullest, spectrum, their codes and values about living, about being human, about what it's all about, but who are we? Where do we come from? Where are we going? What's happening here? And I think that in many ways, what they knew, how they lived, what they practiced, what they saw and this chance to engage this fuller universe in their experience, direct experience in trance States. That's our mission is to explore that and ask, what did they know that we could use today? Because it seems like we're hurtling towards the abyss brick wall and going over the cliff. So we really want to know what did the ancients understand and know that could be useful for us today. They were survivors. So we are much as Dr. Goodman looked and saw volumes of information in artwork or going to look at mythology today. Uh, there's so much in the mythologies of the ancient world, so full of wisdom. And today we'll spend time with two, mythologist, a husband, wife, team, John and Kathleen Matthews , uh , hell from Oxford England, and are here with us via zoom to explore a part of the world that so many of us have roots in. Um, so many of us, second generation, third generation Americans come from that part of the world. And , uh, it's speaks to so much of what we, what we share today. So thank you, John and Kathleen, I know you've seen her name spelled Caitlyn , but she says it is pronounced Kathleen. And we'll try to remember that today and , uh , very rare to have a husband wife team. We know about husband, wife, teams working together. So we honor all the husband, wife teams there who,

Speaker 1:
5:58

Who work together. I think you're stronger with the two of you , um, as we find it. So welcome today. And thank you. Tell us why mythology, why? Oh, and I have one of your books Walker's between the worlds, the Western mysteries from shaman to magase . And I also know that you're familiar with the work of Dr. Phyllis dis Goodman. Well, let's start there. You say that you were a little , uh, pendant around your neck that was inspired Cernunnos.

Speaker 5:
6:27

This is going to us , or sometimes call that anyway , uh , from the good district cauldron , uh , accordion that was discovered in , uh , in a bog , um, in Denmark , uh, in that 1,910 or something like that. Uh, and this, this figure is at the bottom of the , uh, no , it's in the bottom [inaudible] , it's in the corner . And anyway, and of course the , one of the things that we noticed immediately was the posture , uh , this, this, which is quite Yogi . In some ways, it looks quite yoga . And I consider this person, he considered this to be the earth Sharman , which is , uh , an example of a , of, one of the oldest representation of what we think of today as it's common. And it has symbolic symbology from cultural tradition. He's holding the , uh, the talk here, which represents , uh, you know, his connection to the tribe and to the other, to the rest of the people. He has a serpent here, the serpent of wisdom. And of course he's wearing the horns because he is connected to the animal world when he's calling on us . And that's certainly one of the names really. Um, he is the Lord of the beast . He is the one who looks after animals, who is in charge of in some way animals. Well, what can actually this, between this and visitors, his work , uh, was the fact that she had also written extensively about postures. And I'm sure you've all heard about this. Uh, you know, over the , over the time you've been working with the Institute. Um, but the idea is that in these cave drawings and pictures that she found from the very earliest times , um, were characters who were also assuming curious positions , usually lying down and this, she took to be , I think, quite rightly to be an indication that these people were entering into a trance by adopting certain positions. So , um, I can't do it anymore because I'm not that subtle , but at one time when I was younger, I did actually try out this one. And I found that it actually opened up my consciousness in a way that other things are not. So , um, I was doing this for this awhile and that's how the connection came about between our work. And that's a Dr. Whitman , you, Oh, that's so exciting.

Speaker 1:
8:56

Yeah. That's one of our favorite , uh, postures and one of the few that we have from the Celtic tradition. So it really works. Yeah. So I love hearing about our work so well , uh , mythology, tell us a little bit about your background and how you met and what inspired 90 books , uh, over decades to

Speaker 6:
9:18

200 books now. Oh

Speaker 1:
9:19

My God. I was like, okay, bring me up to date.

Speaker 6:
9:23

Yeah . A surprise surprise in the library. Um, and it wasn't actually a library where we were looking up something. It was where we both worked. We worked in Kensington in London , uh, from quite a few years. And that was where we matched . And I remember distinctly our meeting took place in the staff room where I was chatting about the Mabee noggin, which is one of the oldest Welsh elections. Um , this, this person here came in and, Oh , I know about that too. And we got chatting and that , as I say was the beginning. So we were brought together by Welsh mythology. There you are exactly.

Speaker 1:
10:04

And continued from there. What is it about, I mean, define mythology when we say mythology, what are we talking?

Speaker 6:
10:11

Well, I think it's, you know, the , um, uh, Celastrus who was the Emmanuel ANSYS of Julian, who's called the apostate by others, not by pagans. Um , Julian and , um , the last years was a philosopher whom he sort of brought in to help , um, repaved the Roman world. Um, um, so last year said misses something that has never happened and is happening all the time.

Speaker 1:
10:41

Oh yeah. I love that.

Speaker 6:
10:44

Which is a wonderful way because of course , um, you know, gods , don't literally kill their brothers and sisters and do whatever, you know , uh , as we hear in sort of Greek and Roman mythology, but , um, but the partisans , uh, within the more recognizable to all of us, so that, especially today in , in an era when , uh, it's very unfortunate, that myth has come to mean in popular parlance, an untruth , um, w which is, of course,

Speaker 1:
11:14

Gwen says science fiction is the lies we tell in order to tell the truth or Joseph Campbell would say, and I would say what he did for the world's mythologies, cook it down into one essential formula Goodman did for the world's rituals to cook it down to one essential formula and thereby make it accessible to all of us, that we all have an Avenue back to that. So , um, what do you think the great gift of mythology is to the ages in which it originated and to us today?

Speaker 6:
11:48

I think it's , as far as you can actually say this it's to do with teaching us things that are constant, it offers us ways of approaching things. Uh, it gives us visual visual clues to what we might call the inner work of the universe. You know, it's like telling a story , uh, you know, I mean, the , the quotation that , that Kathleen just made is a very good one on my, my old friend, the artist, Michael Ayrton , right ? Put it in another way. You said it is what was once is now, and forever will be, that's a great definition out of the same, but he took, I think he took it from the same source and developed it, but it's like a myth is a constant. There is what I would say as much as anything. And just as our ancestors, we assume began to make stories of these beings that they saw as being, you know, in charge of the universe, in charge of their lives. It didn't matter whether or not they were real or whether they were true. It was simply that they saw a God of the rain, the goddess of the land, whatever it was when you posted the creation in a way of , uh , you know, of these, these ancient truths. But it's the story that keeps us together because without , without the saving story, without the salvific story, the one that there's this art , and we see this in so many regards , um, you know, not just in the place we are in today, that we see people in tough places. I mean, we remember, you know, that there's guys that by the bit , and these who kept themselves doing by playing up the stories of star Trek, wow. It was a mess that was common to all of them come out of their culture and the ongoing voyages of the star stick Starship enterprise, where the things that kept them together, audience , soul. And so I would say that, you know, that the mess , the story , um, is what bears our soul . And that is what is the greatest continuity, because we cannot always hand on the things that we have and know that that's through Nestle can,

Speaker 4:
14:05

You know, I wonder sometimes , uh, two things, one is bad. If I look back into the early, most distant past and wonder what were their stories? What were their mythologies? What were the worldview it's constant? So it should be available to us even today. It's embedded deeply within our hearts, our souls, our DNA, our brain structure, everything. And yet, I wonder also, what are the myths that we tell each other today? They seem so far off the Mark who were the heroes of today and what are the values that they are evincing and sharing and teaching us that are the, the underlayment that are there, but there you have something to say, John, to answer this, I wonder how far off the eternal truth

Speaker 1:
14:52

That we got in today, because we seem so out of sorts and off the Mark.

Speaker 6:
14:59

Yeah. I mean that , that's somebody , that's a very easy one because I'm a huge science fiction fan. Um, and you know, when I watched things like star Trek, or even more perhaps star Wars, I just see new myths

Speaker 1:
15:13

Yes. Or a continuation of the old myth in a new way,

Speaker 6:
15:20

The parallels between star Trek enterprise and the Ethereum world in which is a fair . And they're reaching in a round room at a round table. So in a , in a way it's the same, it's the same thing. And I think these things come out and they come actually new forms, you know, I mean, we all know what the force is when we read , when we hear about in star Wars, Jedediah doing, because they're shaman , you know, and all of those things. Uh, so we're, we're , we are miss makers and we carry on making them, but we don't always make new ones.

Speaker 1:
15:57

No, I don't think we do. But I kind of wondering about who are , who are we celebrating today , sports heroes , um, you know, kind of the celebrities of today, the Kardashians, why are they taking so much of our attention? W why , who aren't reaching out seem to be heroic in my book, but yeah ,

Speaker 6:
16:18

The early Greeks also celebrated sports people . They had poets, poets were the, you know , like Pindar , uh , uh, employed to write praise poems of the Olympic games and of those winners. Yes . We can't even begin to imagine that kind of combination of poetry and sports now. Um , we always, always had, you know , you know, celebrity focused , um , now of course, you know , um, they didn't talk television then and be able to recognize sports people from other nations , uh, in a way that we couldn't perhaps, you know, in times past. But I think that the, you know, the way that the ancient world worked was that , um, that people of wisdom were known to each other. Um, even if they showed up and traveled through three or four countries, they would be recognized as wise people , um, by, by their nature, by their bearing, by the way they were , um, uh, in a, in a very different way , um, than we do now. Um , not as academics, which is people who are practitioners , um, people to whom the knowledge is coming out of every pore of their body, as well as from their moms. Yeah . I mean , it's, it was the same in the Celtic world too. We have coats were considered to be sacred. I , you know, I mean, there's a famous instances. People who

Speaker 7:
17:51

Probably could walk through a battlefield and the battle would stop until the poets had walked through, that was the kind of respect they were in because his person was inviolable. And if someone killed him or injured him, the damage price was there. Yes, absolutely. So , um, so I think that we've come, you know, we can't in many ways , um, compare all worlds with the ancient cloud because so much of the Western world or Western style thinking , um, does not recognize the sacred , um, as having a part that was who , um, you know, those of us now who work at the edge or working at the edge for a very simple reason so that when, when people, you know, lose it in the marketplace, they can't find who they want. They run to the edge. And that's what they find is ,

Speaker 1:
18:46

I mean, our biggest edifices are not to spirituality. It's to commerce. We consider ourselves customers, not citizens. Um, so going something deepest shifted. And I think it's because we no longer hold everything as sacred,

Speaker 7:
19:03

So it's become commodified. And when things become commodified, and of course we can trace this, you know, this fracture , but right, the way that into the fairy world, because the fairy world of engagement, the power , we engage with those people of the other world, those who live in our world, who we sit all around us, whom we don't see , um, are of course the rules of good engagement and neighborliness, because , um, there are things, if you borrow something, you give it that , uh , if you have interchange with people, you speak truth billing . Uh , if you promise to do a thing, you fulfill it. Um, and so of course all these things , um, or actually the blueprint of how we are supposed to live with each other. And, you know, this is what we talked about in the last book of the grail, which is a recent book that we did , um, on , uh, a grail text, which is very little known from the 13th century , um, where we talk about the fairy accord , which we once had , um, being broken. There is a cup that is available to all who travel and so that if they events hunger and thirst, the maidens will come out of the Wells and give them food and drink. Um , then of course that goes on happening until someone thinks, Hey, this is a nice car. And wow, she's very nice. Um , and on this , the rape of, of hospitality on the rape, the rape of the hostess. So it's, you know , Shakespeare,

Speaker 1:
20:35

It was gone on into discord and it really takes humans finding the right partnership before the natural world. And the human real can be put back to balance. So that's a , that's a very old thing , but you, you wonder about the greed is good today. And the, the common courtesies and the core values have shifted. So it's all about me, me, me, and how much can I, you know, it's like , it's like , we're not following those rules. I wonder we're out of balance, distraction , distraction. Yeah.

Speaker 6:
21:07

Consciousness gone, absolutely crazy because we , we've sort of lost on what to one extent a tribal consciousness, a group consciousness, which, you know, in the sea and mobs. And I , I don't need to underscore the word mob this week. Um, and , um, you know , um, this, this growth of individual consciousness, which of course we, as a people have gone through , um , over the last few thousand years , um, has come through to this ridiculously narcissistic place where it's now, everything is about ourselves and not about , um, uh, the collective

Speaker 1:
21:45

Good or higher value .

Speaker 6:
21:48

I think one of the, one of the interesting things that's happening at the moment in the , in the mythological world of certainly of academe, very interesting thing. We have already a good friend who teaches at , um , at the moment he's teaching in Germany. Normally he teaches in Croatia at one of the universities there, and he drew our attention to the fact that an increasing number of studies of mythology are all based on the earth and our relationship to it. And even things like global warming, all of those things are now being considered in the likes of myth , which I think is very interesting because it's just a desire to get in touch again. I mean, I'm sure everybody must've noticed when we had the first big lockdown situation here this last year. Um, how suddenly, how quiet it was, there were no cars and suddenly you could hear birds singing again and animals through . You barely see in our, you know , in our cities where suddenly coming out sheep were wandering down the high street and deer, weren't eating your hedge. And next thing you know, suddenly you were aware again, of the natural world in a way we hadn't been, we might've believed in it as a sort of academic idea. Yes. We know we're ruining the planet. Sorry. I can't do anything about it. Well, you know , suddenly we were being woken up by should show and just what it could be like and myth . Yes.

Speaker 1:
23:17

Which is a nice myth there too. Okay. So things have happened , uh, to our ancestors over and over and over again, they had to deal with monumental shifts with , uh , Twilight of their era to rebirth a new era. What lessons might we learn from them that we can apply today and also, so that we can steer where we actually collectively want to go? Um, how can it serve us today? Well,

Speaker 5:
23:46

Miss , I think , um, has a great deal to teach us. And it teaches us about hope, actually, a very simple, but very important thing because our ancestors, as you said, very rightly had to go through these things. This is not the first level of pandemic we've ever had. We've had dozens of in the past, people survived . They drew strengths from the inner worlds from this allergy , from spirituality. So much of which we've thrown out of the window since then. I mean, the number of people in the world now who really believe in something they might appear to , but whether they really do sometimes when you scratch the surface, you find that that belief only goes so far, but it's those ones who still have that connection with that , with the bigger universe, if you like inner and outer, they're the ones that are surviving. And I think that is the essential lesson is to remember that if you stay in contact and if you keep hoping , uh , you know , it will actually have an effect.

Speaker 7:
24:54

Let me pause that , um, that, you know, one of the things that we're we're facing now , um, is a loss of mythic infrastructure. If I can put it that way and that people don't have the stories, stories, and songs, they don't have the understandings. And , uh , this was born in, on me very, very strongly, a few years ago. Um, I was asked to go down to Cornwall. Um, so I offer a ritual which helps re consecrate women who have been raped. I went down there , um , there was a collective of women who got together and they said, would you come down and support our three friends and undo what you do with them? I'm part of the ritual is that , that we offer , um, always, we always have an Oracle of what is most important and true and supportive to that person. And so normally it's coming out of someone's spirituality. So we're quite used to doing say S or spiritual beings or mythological beings on each one of these women had nothing. They had no belief or background at all. And so I sort of thought, well, okay. So when you're in the absolutely worst place, what is it that you turn to on every single one of those women mentioned a place. One of them mentioned a cliff top where she walked another one, went to a sculpture garden down in some times , uh, another one said, well, I go to the tree at the bottom of my garden. They were all places in the landscape. And so when everything else is completely washed away out of consciousness, the land remains that's . I turned to my , um, you know , um , my , uh, assistance on that, on that natural and said, can we do rituals of those places? And they said, sure, we will. We'll do Oracle. We'll do Oracles of the clifftop. We'll do Oracle of the , uh, of the sculpture garden of the, of the Oak tree. And of course they did speak to them .

Speaker 1:
26:55

You think is the magic that ritual provides as well as the land. Yeah ,

Speaker 7:
27:00

It depends what the ritual is for because ritual all has purpose. There is no one ritual. Um, we have seasonal rituals, rites of passage , um, all sorts of different things, rituals made for a purpose, but they, they help vocalize and bring down in the same way that a shrine when it's set up becomes the sitting place at the divinity. Um, so too , when we make a ritual, we're creating a container or something that is , um , beyond our world to come into it, that which we don't see can become visible and manifest within our world. That's really what we'll do .

Speaker 1:
27:39

I would also think that reciting the miss is original, that binds this society that teaches the society that inspires the society, the audience, and that I really go back to small groups, sitting around the campfire, looking at the stars that night and telling their stories it's so, so deeply embedded in us to stir that disturb the imagination. And what's possible. I also think that it's very lonely. You described these women being at rock bottom and all alone, and to turn back to those eternal , uh, uh, places and , and rituals, but that the hero journey reminds us that we're never alone, that the heroes have faced this and worse in their own way. The roads can turn Rocky. And there's a way , uh, through, through the threshold guardians to find your mentors, to find your deface , your dark night of the soul, which we all must do. So it also provides a formula or a roadmap.

Speaker 7:
28:40

Well, I don't notice I liked formulas. I would just say that I, I think every single situation is different. Um, and I would also say that , uh , meth is not manipulated will , um, uh, into a formulaic way at all. Um, because there are certain stories that do not speak to us. And there are certain stories which are very much of our culture or time , um, which speaks very clearly. Um, but that , we're actually part of a collective understanding of myth, not an individual one, because the minute you say individual, Mr . People, they go off and try and start to live that, which is a disaster. Um , because as soon as people put themselves on an archetypal rail, they get hockey types . It's like being smitten by lightning again and again and again. Um, and so I think we need to be very careful with this because I've worked in this world very long time , uh, in this way with myth , um, under those very close identifications , um, although are helpful when you're reading say the myth of the DCS, when people are going through a great difficulty of coming home to themselves or whatever , um, that there is something that's beyond the psychological , um, here, there is something which is really powerful and we should be respectful of that. We can't formularize things. I think this is, this is dangerous. Um, and , and we have come across , um, you know , uh, political movements that have made formulas , um, in a way that become almost mythic, which we know deadly scary.

Speaker 5:
30:17

Yeah. I mean, I, I have to say, I agree with that. I mean , uh , I, I was always a big fan. No , Campbell's , um, you know, if only because you know, that famous TV series about myth was so exciting that it had people turning off their soaps to watch it every week. Now, could you imagine you're watching a , uh , you know , a six part hour-long series on mesh without going, Oh, this is boring. Let's go watch the game. You know , um, the , the time, I mean, it's, it's been a very interesting thing that I've observed over the years. I mean, about 30 years ago when I used to be much more on the circuit of teaching and I used to teach a lot in the States. I remember being at a , a gathering where I think about half a dozen of what I call the leading teachers of mythology of spirituality of all over various different places. We're all in the rooms together. Um , we were all sitting together and we were going, what's it going to be like in 10 years, 20 years, will we still be here? Will we still be talking about this? And I said, at the time I said, we will, but the numbers of people who are listening to us will disappear. Now this was back in the sixties and then the nineties , sorry, the nineties, when everybody was into the new age movement, and everybody wanted this, that and the other, and they'd go to any teacher of anything, which was great, you know,

Speaker 7:
31:45

Make a system of it. I'd make assistance , just shuffle it together. Yeah .

Speaker 5:
31:50

That's actually, that reminded me what I was going to say about Joe Campbell was that I didn't like the fact that he traced mythology into patterns quite to the extent that he did. But anyway, as I said, I was sitting there and saying like , no, but the people who'd be left in 20 years. And now in this case, 30 years time are those who are really committed ones who haven't gone. Oh , I think I'll try yoga next week. No, that's not working. I think I'll try whatever, you know. Um , and we've seen this happen, you know, I mean, it what's left now. And the people that, the numbers that come to , uh, to work with us have fallen away. And I don't think it's because what we're saying is less important. I think it's because it's less seen to be important

Speaker 8:
32:38

Versus making it accessible

Speaker 3:
32:40

To a general audience. I think there's room for both, but because not, everybody's going to go as deep as you are. You're bringing up such before issues. And, and , you know, I, one of the things that Laura and I had the advantage of during the decade long radio show is that we talked to, you talked to researchers from around the world, but what we found audiences looking for, it's seeking, they're seeking answers. People are trying to find all the topics no matter what, no matter who the author was, it all tied back to an element of seeking and today's world. We've kind of picked up this world of shamanism and now with being attached to so many different things. Um, um, but you know, there is that, look, when you say the word shamanism and you look at spirituality, do we go to the native Americans? Do we go to Siberia? Do we go to India? Do we go to Tibet? Where do we find spirituality? And that comes back to this core thing that I think Dr. Goodman was focused on about the , the worldwide phenomenon of a connectedness. And we all have this tradition and it's not relegated to a specific culture. And part of today's discussion really comes back to what is Western civilizations, history of spirituality. pre-Christian, pre-bid pre whatever, go back into history and look at it. And this has been part of our journey and our search, as well as to find that, that element. And that's where your, your research , uh, is so magnificent. It's something that we , we want to know more about. I'm enjoying hearing a pushback on what Joseph Campbell contributed, because I think it was immense to make spiritual or mythology accessible and interesting to everybody where it might not have been. So I think there's room for both, but I appreciate your perspective and I respect your perspective as well. So glad there are people like yourself who are reviving the intricacies and the breadth and the depth of the mythologies and keeping them relevant and accessible and writing about them. Um , not, you know, you're doing such a surface for the rest of us to maintain that.

Speaker 5:
34:48

Um, no, I was saying that Laurie , you touched on it yourself when you talked about telling the story, because this is something we've always both been committed to the storytelling, you know, and, you know, I mean, at this moment, I'm working on a huge collection of our theory and stuff, which will tell all the stories that Mallory left out of his daughter is a huge 500 page book. Um , but the thing is it's retelling , um, you know, you and they never come out quite the same. You'll never use the same words to ice as a storyteller. If you sat in one of those circles, which still do exist, not as often as I wish they did where you are telling a story, and there's a group of people, there's nothing quite like that moment when you start telling the story and you suddenly realize that all the people in the circle

Speaker 7:
35:38

Are going, and they're hearing every word that you're saying, and it's going in deep. And that's the power of myth , I think, is that it goes in deep thing that other things don't, you know what I mean with no meaning, no offense to any anyone of any belief system who may be part of this circle. Um , there are all these things, and that includes Christianity has its mythological element . Um, and those things that still speak to us , um, feel please have a wonderful structure of , uh, you know, a really ancient Germanic tradition. And it's , it's not all as, or acknowledged as that. Um, I would even go so far as to say that people, for instance , uh, you know, monks or nuns, for instance, although you don't think of them as being practitioners with mythology, not because of their beliefs, but because there's a way they do it. The perpetual choirs of songs, actually , what I was thinking requires us . We have not talked about song song is what keeps things alive. Song comes with the , um, with images that goes straight into the soul and sand has no barriers , um, and remains not. We know that dad's stars , uh , the sound of dead stars is still reaching us. So we know how long sound goes on for. And so the things that we sing, he who he, who sings, prays twice is the ultimate Gnostic outage. Um, everything I do is with song, which is why I cannot teach on the internet because I'm used to singing spontaneously with people. And although there are lots of programs whereby you with a choir can sing the same notes at the same time, there is no way that you can sing all those notes together when they're arriving spontaneously and coming out in lots of different ways with people. Um, so I can instruct and talk and tell stories till the cows come home. But no, I can't teach the way I would normally teach, because that is, that is the way that things come over new mentored in the moment on that side of the meth and the storytelling has always happened in the moment. So those that are maintaining , um, whether , whether it's monastic prayer, where the 150 Psalms are said once a week , um, on song for the sake of those that are not singing, or whether it's people reciting the adders or the vetters, it really doesn't matter. Um, whether it's the nights , the nine nights of dancing or whether it's the people who seem the creation stories among the pueblos, those are the things that keep everything together. It , it, it's all within the song and that song is singing us.

Speaker 1:
38:23

The song is singing us. I want to say also that what you're speaking to me is like really good theater when you're watching a live performance and you're there in the audience you go into, I

Speaker 4:
38:36

Think a semi trance state, we call it suspended disbelief, but you're enraptured. You're totally in the moment that something is conveyed through the voice and the gesture and the symbol and the ritual of the choreography of the performance. It's a , it's a, it's a transmission receiving.

Speaker 6:
38:56

We're not really much

Speaker 4:
38:58

What we do and what you do. There's that deep connection. I'm so glad that we found that. And you know, they're really deepest connection right off the bat. Thank you. Because we're getting down to the bedrock.

Speaker 6:
39:10

Yeah, because it's , it's the not editing. It's the, not secondary, the secondary thinking about things. It's , if you're in the moment, you can't be anywhere else, but so much, so much of , um, when people go to sacred events , um, that they don't get swept on because they may not have the full understanding of what they're seeing or being part of the, make it some part of it. Um, but as soon as that critical brain comes in, get one with anything, as soon as you've made a second sword. Well , that's like the time when, you know , um, we distract from the absolutely embodied method is happening like that. Uh ,

Speaker 4:
39:50

Such as this, where is the a hall moment? You know, that breakthrough, that for me is the magic of, of conversation, which is alive

Speaker 6:
40:00

After all theater itself began as ritual. You know, it grew from, it moved from, from ritual theater to theater, theater, and theater, mostly since then, although you do still get things, you can get this in, in opera, you know, the famous composer call off wrote a number of , uh , extraordinary works that he called magic theater and they were operas that they were spoken, almost spoken the song sung, spoken singspiel um, you know, where you got that sense of the, of the , the ancient magical world. I mean, [inaudible] , I'm not a great fan of Wagner, but if you really tune in, if you watch, as you listen to and watch pacifier, for instance, which retails the story of the grail, whatever you think about Wagner. And certainly some of his beliefs were a bit off his, his ability to conjure a sense of something. Um, to me, he says as much about the grail, as I could probably say in a couple of books, but he did mess with the story, messing with the story is naughty. I was thinking also about the way that myth crops up in unexpected ways, for instance, the maid , the labyrinth, which is a very, very crucial and important assemble . One of the oldest, if not the oldest of , to find, because it's carved on the walls of these ancient caves, it's carved on ancient stones across the whole of Britain. And yet it comes up in the most unexpected ways. For instance, the Cistercians, that's a very Christian bunch of monks who are among the most powerful in the middle ages, in almost all their monastic establishments . They had something carved in the earth, outside the walls, and that was a labyrinth or a maze. And they called it a amazed where you , you could go around , it's on your knees. They call the Jerusalem maze , because if you couldn't go on pilgrimage to Jerusalem, you went around the maze on your knees. And when you've got to Jerusalem, now, this is the reenactment of a very ancient practice still going on in a Christian community in the middle ages. These things just keep on coming back. The labyrinth starts with the dance, which is the other thing we don't , you cannot come together. There is no way that you can , um , dance as a group with a group of people in the circle, or as a pair of people in a dance without being actually in the moment. And in fact, in , in the , uh, the Italian , um , traditions of the time and talent , um , you have to look your partner in the eye the whole time. Cause the minute you start looking somewhere else, you're out of the dance. Absolutely. So , um, uh, and people saw, I don't think I can learn to dance. It's like, will you just listen to the music? The music informs you

Speaker 1:
43:07

And it should go through you and it should dance.

Speaker 6:
43:10

I have to go through here .

Speaker 1:
43:14

Oh , I , it , so you're talking about the labyrinth, which is a symbol voice song, chant, landscape place. I love what you said. The sitting place that the divine is a shrine, the reenactment, the ritual, you're talking about all the elements that we play with and that have been handed down through time that speak to us. So I don't know holistically , so much of our physiology is tuned to that. No wonder were we doing it as long as we're , as long as humans are around.

Speaker 6:
43:45

Yeah , but we , um, we've just completed our 35th year of writing a really big , um, group ritual , um, which , um, we do every December. It's a different literal every time we never do it again , um, where we create , um, music, dance and so on. So , um, but we also write the words,

Speaker 1:
44:08

What's your inspiration? Where do you draw from?

Speaker 6:
44:12

It depends on the subject. You know, if we're , if we're doing a weekend on the ground , we'll grow and grail and Arthur and mature . If we're doing something on ferry , Woodrow on ferry mythology . So whatever is there, you tune into it, you tune into it and you write the words that come to you. I mean, do you ever

Speaker 1:
44:29

Practice turning in or is just kind of there and you're always listening.

Speaker 7:
44:34

Uh, it's always there. And I, when I, when I listen or mostly, I mean, you know, it's not like it's not quite like inspiration. Rich does take a holiday from time to time. If you're a , if you're a writer, there are definitely days when you just, the words don't come. But I don't think in the many years that I've done this work, I've ever got to a point where I certainly couldn't think what to do or what to , to make a ritual.

Speaker 1:
45:00

200 bucks .

Speaker 7:
45:03

Our books are just the tip of the iceberg. That's not all no work. That's just what we can convey in writing. Um , so much of our work is what we do in person. And when we're together with people and what comes up, of course, you know , the beginning of anything, again , to teach, of course, we've come there to do a particular topic, to look into a particular topic. But because of the people that are in the room, the way you teach will be utterly different every time. Um , because there'll be, for example, I remember of course , um, rye had , um , nine people who worked in mental health. Of course it completely changed everything that we were doing was the nature of their needs. The nature of their particular understanding , um, was, was memory resident in the room. And so I think, you know , this is where, you know, you need an audience and a studio situation such as we are on zoom doesn't work, or we can't pick up on the physical, cute hues of each other. We can't, we can't see the gesture. Um, you know, all those things inform us all the time and the atmosphere in which we are is, is the most information. So the first thing I do before I do anything else on any course is we sing together and then I know it's actually how I'm going to teach.

Speaker 1:
46:19

Oh, okay. No , I want to start with Brian , our , uh , resident mytho poet , uh, for your , your feedback, Brian, because I know you'll ,

Speaker 9:
46:30

Uh , I've been a great fan. Uh , obviously I've been great fan. I love this book, the Celtic shaman. Yeah. So we have a local area , uh, in , uh , Bangor, Pennsylvania near where I live. Um, and it it's , uh , about 20 acres where there are standing stones that have been laid out. Um, I was very fascinated with what you might be able to tell us about some of the mythology around, have you traveled into Iona and some of the great teachings around Colomba, but particularly Orrin the orange. And I just find it fascinating, the acceptance of the sort of the nothingness or the fact that we in the West have so much to learn by not knowing. So I wonder if you, if you might share some of the orange tradition with us,

Speaker 7:
47:19

I love the story. Do you want to tell the story about her ? Um, briefly , um, the story of, I own a and it's building was that the building kept down

Speaker 6:
47:30

Columbia prayed. What do we have to do? One of your own has to go into the ground because of course, this is the necessity for all communities that before you build something, especially a sacred building, someone has to go into the ground to suck, realize it, to send the ancestor ahead. And so Columbia was drawing on this tradition. And so he sort of said to his monks, okay, would one of you , um, like to go into the ground on the thank you , except they said I will. And so Oren was put into the grave. The earth was put on top of him still living. Um, and then, well , tiptoed back to the RB and carried on building. And the building did not fall down, but as days went by, the monks were very, very sad because, you know, they were thinking of their brother lying under the earth. Um , so eventually Columbia was persuaded that he should be , um, investigated to make sure he was all right . And so the earth was removed from Oregon and , um, on sat up from his grave. And he said, do you know, the other world is not as it is reported. It was. And he got no further because Columbus said earth upon the mouth of the Lord , unless he blabbed too much foundation sacrifice , basically, which of course is a pre-question . Absolutely. Well , it's interesting how many of the Caltech scents were quite pegging in their approach to things or much more sympathetic towards what had come before? I mean, Culebra himself , uh, went away at one point leaving his , uh, his fellows to , uh, to build a new church. And when he got back, he found that they'd cut, that they'd failed the sacred circle of trees that had been saved . We'll do it. And he said, I wash them. He said, no, well , the church somewhere else. And I don't ever want you to do this again. And the worst sound I can imagine in the world is the sound of an ax hitting a sacred tree in Ireland. So, you know, you've got much more sympathy in that. Uh, I mean the places, places are usually important of course, because they have memory because they remember what happened there. I mean, if you go to one of these ancient stone circles , um, you, you, you can sit there if it's, if you're lucky enough to get it, when it's quiet, surrounded by people taking photos , um, you know, you can, you really can tune into that basic , I mean, true well, and you get, but you're not just getting , uh , a memory. You're getting a kind of teaching out of it too. I feel indeed.

Speaker 4:
50:05

Well, I find it interesting how many remnants of that , uh , view that all is conscious and all a sacred shows up in a new form. And then suddenly it's hugely popular because it has that ring of eternal truth to us. So look at Marie Kondo and her here , how to clear out your home, take everything, does spark joy, and let's think it it's animism. Let's think it, and then send it off to find a new home. And she's usually popular because she's bringing a very ancient worldview and making it manifest today, or the star Wars akin look at star Wars and star Trek in, you mentioned it's an old myth replayed in modern forum , but we hunger for that still don't we, we know that

Speaker 5:
50:54

No , I'm , Joe has a risk level nationalization whereby we'll water , lots of stuff. And I think she's probably the right corrective to that role. That's probably, it

Speaker 4:
51:07

There's a million books about organizing, but hers just suddenly, because she's bringing an ancient truth forward, right. Even, even as a little, maybe silly to think every sweater you're giving off to charity, but anyway, two begins with prayer. She begins with prayer. I just find it interesting to remnants that show up in the modern core and how we take to them even today.

Speaker 5:
51:30

Nope . I do one structure and, you know, for want of a better word religion , uh, you know, even though that's not a very , uh , popular word at the moment, but I was very struck a few years ago. We, we , we do these , um, uh, we do this head counting here . You know, we, we work out how many people that are in the country , census it's called. And , um, along with the other things that you put on the , uh , form is your religion only had that since the year, 2000, the year 2001, that's true. It wasn't on that first time. And I'm not sure how many times this has happened since, but that first time a huge number of people put down. Didn't tough one , but that was a very nice word . Yeah , exactly . I didn't mean it , but again, it's X an echo that comes down through time. You know, I am a star Wars freak. I'll put my hand up to it and watch them. I can't watch them without seeing them it's and I know of course the star Wars began, of course, some Joe Campbell, again , uh, you know, from Spielberg, looking at Joe Campbell and Lucas , looking at Joe Campbell's work and seeing that and interpreting it for a modern audience. So the myths don't go away, you know, they're always there and they're always accessible to us. And especially, I think the deeper we go into the practice of shamanism is obviously a very good way of touching upon all that. Um, but , uh, you know, whatever, whatever approach you make, the deeper you go, the more you get.

Speaker 4:
53:12

Yeah. Um, when we went to 10 tagil, we'd saw that , uh , we with David Elkington and Cliven Linda shirt , um , born and all of that, and you're quite the journey, but it's just this little hillock and it's this little, few stones, and it's not what you imagine . Um, but you, it , the only joy that you get there is what the land is. Speaking of, right? You, it's so simple and so quaint. So why 10 Taja ? Why King Arthur? Why did that suddenly take off? What were the forces involved? Was it the whoever Mallory , whoever who, who popularized it, you know, a few centuries ago, what makes a myth endure to modern times?

Speaker 5:
53:56

Me , that's all you're going to get. Now, let me try it . Let me try and sneak scan it. Now , Probably the biggest, one of all is the fact that , um, he, if , if first of all, let's, let's look for a moment. There's a possibility. There really was a King and there are several contenders and we won't go into that. Gotcha . But once the most popular version that is believed by historians is a sixth century character , um, who basically brought together all the previously feuding tribes in Britain . This is after the Romans had left and suddenly were under attack by the sanctions and the Jutes and , uh , various other people from across that way and the pigs. Um, and he brought together those people in this country that the tribes that had spent more time fighting each other when they weren't fighting Romans and a unified them. So he gave the , the plate he gave the country a moment of identity. So we say as whether you call it British Celtic , whatever you want to call it. Um, and that has abandoned our memory because in that sense, he's a kind of savior figure right there at the beginning of , of our , sort of the, the, the series should recorded parts of our history. Uh, and after that, it keeps on getting picked up Geoffrey of Monmouth , as Kathleen mentioned , uh, he wrote one of the earliest issues of the Kings of Britain in the 11th century, made Arthur A. Norman hero by dressing them up in the time , um, moderate who comes much later in the 15th century, made him a medieval gent and night , you know, who'd go off questing and search of things. And Mallory brought together all of the elements of it. He brought the grille myths that had come in from France. Uh , he brought the , uh, he brought the myths of the King ship , uh, from all over the place. He brought in myths from all kinds and bound , all those stories together into the motor Arthur . And so that's into that amazing book, which is really in a way, the oldest novel , um, yeah, it's the longest ongoing soap in the world. It is, there's another version in every generation and every language just about your way back to the ninth century. Yeah, absolutely. I mean, it goes on

Speaker 6:
56:24

And it's, it embodies everything. I mean, if you really got to sit down and pick up any big book that selects major are fearing stories, and you'll find love interest, you'll find politics, you'll find battle . You'll find in other words, something for everyone , um, that's one of the qualities, again, miss speaks so deeply to us that it gets the feeling of all those different things, whatever your interest is, wherever you come from , uh , what your beliefs are , uh, that's something for you in that, you know, so there are Hebrew versions that are French versions of Jerusalem , Spanish, Japanese, you know , Japanese see all the parallels between , uh, the author at nights and the shoguns and the , uh, summarize . So, you know, it's all still there.

Speaker 1:
57:12

Uh , also when you mentioned the soap opera , so longest running, so prop bruh, you wonder why the fascination with soap operas, but Jean Houston once told us that the Mahabharata , uh, looks to , uh, she was talking to people in India. Why are you watching? What was it? It was many years ago, dynasty or whatever long ranging subject, because she said the , the Indian woman said you've got the bad woman and the good woman, and you've got the bad man in the, you know , set that's the mock brought all over again in modern dress. And I thought, okay, yeah, we tell the same stories over and over and over and over and over again in different guises. So yeah ,

Speaker 6:
57:52

Someone's asking about, is there anything from Boudica ? Um, we used to be called Boadicea in the old days, but , uh [inaudible] um, and of course Boudica was living into around the time that the 60 Ady when , um, she had to protect her tribe DIC , um, from the Romans, because her husband died and they couldn't possibly conceive of a woman being able to be a ruler Romans . So , um, they behaved very badly to her and to her people. And , um, um , the only missing thing that I can tell you about Boudica , she's believed to be buried under King's cross station, which is a myth that almost everyone in this country knows on , which has no basis. In fact, whatever that she did, burn London, she burns at Alban's beryllium. Um, and , um, she has said by Tacitus to have taken poison, and that probably was a myth too, but in terms of an untruth and untrue myth , um, but no, there is , um, I'm afraid, nothing extent, no one knows where she was actually buried because everybody disappeared. We know that the last bottle was somewhere up in the elemental and she might be buried under King's cross station. I often think that's on there. I think, I wonder if you were to cause actually under their bodies , she buddies the myth of the warrior woman, which is very important to the , again, the further back in time you go, you know, I'm going

Speaker 5:
59:22

To try this, an embodiment of sovereignty sovereignty, but you have this myth of her in her chariot with sides on the wheels that never happened, you know, and they describing her in different ways that are absolutely non historical, but it captures something else that's deeper than the first. And then the words, if you go and look at Tacitus her story, but that was written , um, quite considerably after the time that she was living. So you're having Roman version author , and that's the only one that exists.

Speaker 4:
59:53

You know, what I also find interesting is the creations of myths in order to , um, have an agenda. So there are stories about some monks saying, Oh, look at the bones of such and such Saint . We've got them here in order to track tourists and, and for commerce. And we find that going on a lot , uh , going on a lot today, creation of myths too , for , for various purposes. So if you have any comments on that, that would be interesting , um, as well, because it's a , it's something that we employ today is something that we utilize the data, capture the imagination.

Speaker 5:
1:00:29

Well, there is, there is something I can say about that. Um, uh, we , because I'm one of the books that I'm working on, I'm always working on three or four books at a time, and one of them I'm working on at the moment it's called the journey of Albion. Albion is one of the ancient names of Britain. And I'm looking at the very, very oldest myths that we still have about the founding of the place. And all of these we used from the moment that they began to get written down, which the oldest one I found is from the ninth century. And basically they were all saying, Oh, but our origin was the city of Troy, or we were one of the 12 tribes of Israel or whatever. And each time that claiming something, you know, so to be British meant to, they're meant to be descended from Troy, you know, our heroes, I like the Trojan heroes and there is stories like brooches . For instance, I've done a lot of work on brooches who is one of the oldest , uh, Kings supposedly, or leaders or commanders, if you like of Britain, who is the great, great grandson of an ESBL of Troy , uh , in the stories. And before, even that there's an even older one in which , uh , a lady called Elvina comes here to Britain and founds , uh , an entirely female population, which doesn't go very far until a few men turned up and after that their population starts to grow. But, you know, so all of these are looking back and claiming a kind of inheritance or a heritage.

Speaker 4:
1:02:04

And I think that's interesting about the whole right to rule and kingship is that there's a story goes and , and I'd like you to elaborate on this, but to be a King in the old country was you had to have some kind of shamonic power, the power to heal the power, to have blessings. Your role was as the liaison between the gods and, and your constituency or whatever. And that Kings and Queens were tested on this ability. Um, where did that come from? And , um, how, how did that get lost over time? Even when you look at the coronation of your own queen Elizabeth, there was some ritual involved where she's anointed with oil and it's supposed to confer on her son, some special powers or something. That's a deep mythology.

Speaker 7:
1:02:53

Can you speak to the modern coronation rights , um, was written by some danced. And so it's very old, it's come from Anglo-Saxon times. And it was based hoarse upon the , uh, annoyances of the biblical Kings , um , by Samuel and , um, all the prophets . Um, but the in Celtic King ship , um, uh , was based on the fact that the , um, the King has to be a member of the tribe. And he had to be an active and adult member of the tribe and have no injury. The minute she had injury , um, he was disqualified because he could not be a by , this is a very Indo-European medicine could not be in Congress with the goddess of the land. Yes. So of course that comes into the ground myth as well, where, you know, the legs and Maddie elements talk about the , um, incapacity of the Fisher King , um, which is what causes the wasteland. Because again, there can be no Congress with the goddess of the land. Um, but the, these ancient myths of , uh , of sovereignty are , um, about the relationship that one has with the land. And if a King is, is not , um, whole in himself, then also it means that the weather will be bad. Uh, the crops will not come in. Animals will be in fertile and so on. And there is a text in an Irish called , uh, the Prince is truth , uh, which exemplifies this. And it talks about an old man who is riding a rusty chariot. He looks neither to left nor to, right. He looks ahead because he knows that the wheels will come off if he's not vigilant. And that is the model of kingship, which is, you know, but of course the myth of sovereignty is that the testing , um, of a King mythically is that he has to go out , um, as a youth. And , um, because it's not something that actually happened. This is we're going back to solicitious again , um, that he had to go out and his tasking was that he needed to find water in order to find water. He comes to a place , uh , to afford , uh , where there's the ugliest woman he's ever seen, who in bar devised

Speaker 6:
1:05:18

Versions asks him for a kiss , but who in the original version says, come and live with me. And if he agrees to do that , um, then not only does he get water , he gets the kingship of the land because in his arm , she turns into the most beautiful woman he's ever seen, who is of course the earth, which of course is another , um, metaphor of kingship, which is that you have to embrace the kingdom that you have, or the ruler being the ruler of whatever it is you are rule around exactly as it is warts. And all interesting. You cannot just think , Oh, I'll be King. Won't not be nice. I'll have a shiny crown . I mean, this country is going to come with a shed load of problems folks. Yes. And so I think this is ,

Speaker 1:
1:06:03

I just think that we need to really understand the, the basis of , um , authority when you questioned authority, understand that the basis and the mythological underpinnings of it.

Speaker 6:
1:06:12

So it's based on honor and truth, always for those who are asking about Vertica, the best I know on her original one that really has all the latest stuff it's called warrior queen by Joanna Aman . I've put it up on the chat page there. And also John also did write a book. I did Boudica warrior queen. I did write a very, very small booklet, almost really part of a series is long out of print, but you might find copies. You might find if you're really desperate, it was 14 pages of writing. And the only thing I really remember about now is the fact that the artists who had to do the cover for the book was very concerned because he was showing Boudica in a position on a chariot with a spear. And he said , um, excuse me for asking, but do you think I should show underarm hair?

Speaker 1:
1:07:08

He wasn't the old who recite those thousand stones. Uh , you have such prodigious memory is for all the details of this stuff. We have questions for all of thank you for this. So Anne has her hand up.

Speaker 10:
1:07:23

Thanks so much. This is fabulous. I just wanted to , um, bring up a book. You're one of your countrymen , I think wrote. And if you knew anything about him, I'm sure you do Martin Shaw, who is a mythologist storyteller who wrote a trilogy. And the wonderful thing about Martin is I guess he went into the Welsh countryside or the also Cornwall. And he literally lived in the woods for years at a time in a tent. And then he wrote of his experience, but he had a lot of credibility with me because talk about connecting with nature. How many of us would live in a tent ? And he's done great work with troubled youth in Britain. And I think as a result of this, where he literally sends them out, you know , prepares them like the shaman to do have a mythic experience. So , um , I'm just

Speaker 6:
1:08:13

Saying

Speaker 7:
1:08:16

Age

Speaker 1:
1:08:16

Of amnesia, as well said, we've forgotten it all, sit in the fairy world and which is another code word for this alternate reality and the rules that go there, you go into the fairy world and you might get stuck there if you eat or drink , uh, that world. If you, I don't know, that would be

Speaker 7:
1:08:36

You go to the theorists who are not , um, in a , um , good , um, uh , connection with us said that the fairies approach to that is that we tell that story to keep you out . Yes.

Speaker 1:
1:08:57

So, and all the tunnels of going in and coming out, all the rules that apply ,

Speaker 7:
1:09:04

Um, dying and writing deputies asked about here and how it was argued by Fraser because Fraser was writing in the 19th century and , uh , early, early 20th century, we're in a very different place now than the informing informing the theology was that , um, of indeed the Eastern Mediterranean , um, uh, which didn't just have Jesus, but also had , uh , donors , uh, Cyrus, others. Um, so you know, this is, this has been , um, the myth and at the moment, I think we're going to be able to face without meth quite soon.

Speaker 1:
1:09:48

Oh , that's interesting. Miss that go in and out of , um,

Speaker 7:
1:09:52

We needed to do , I mean, from the precession of the equinoxes, we only have to, I mean, everyone who's ever started, the pre-session at the Equinox is always sees the patterns of this, but I think that we're probably going out of phase with , um, with that one , um, a little now what's coming in now will be most interesting.

Speaker 1:
1:10:12

Yeah. What do you think what's coming in?

Speaker 7:
1:10:16

Well , I think in the Irish tradition, they have John Reese of stories on the Mackinac , which are the, the wonder disperse of the heroes and heroines. Um, they have the extra , the , the adventures , um, they have their wordings and their slaughters , uh , they're abducting and they're , rowing's about, and all the different kinds of stories that there are. And they go through the human life cycle until you get to the mouth , to the death of the hero or heroine , um, um, in a sense that the dying and rising newness , um, is one that's always going on because heroism does not die. Um, when one hero knives , one say if your time is it doesn't mean to say that , um, everything is reset for all time . Um, we have , uh, we're in a sort of a slightly different reset at the moment, which is why I, a lot of us are feeling very uncomfortable because we're between phases right now

Speaker 1:
1:11:18

In light of an era, then aren't, we,

Speaker 7:
1:11:22

I don't think, I think, you know, that nothing goes without another window opening and , um, I think from birth to happen. Yeah . But because we live, we live such short lives. It's very hard for us to see these , um, these phases in as clear away as we might. But , but I remember back in the eighties when John and I were writing Western way, and we were very clear, we worked with various as magical groups at that time. Um, mostly made up of , um, people who worked with Gareth Knight and with RJ Stewart. And we made one large eclectic group that worked with the land, but it was very clear to us then that , that at that particular time, it was almost as though there was stratas of time and that the ones that were near the bottom were kind of coming up towards the top again. And those were the ones , um, of, of the peoples for whom we have no literature, the whom we have , uh, no one wrote down what they said or did. Um, but the , the land itself holds their memory. And that's what we started to work with then. And I think we're still in that , um , time. And it's , uh , I think it's one in which , um, has, has come forth in very many ways and is coming forth, but we will not live to see its ending , um, in, in this lifetime. Um, I think this is an era in which we need to do things with our physical bodies, that to know, to do the very, some of those very basic things. And of course we see this coming out in America, in survivalism. Um, but we also see it in the bake-off and things like this, where people learn to cook again , um, where people learn to sew again, where people learn to tend to garden. Um , it , all, those, those things are really, really important. And those are the bridges across, which I think life comes. Um, we don't want to become so dependent upon other people's technology to the extent that , um, that we cannot maintain life ourselves. And I think by the doing of those things that we learn , um, and we hold a memory for ourselves and for our peoples and for all of those , um, the will follow us , um, and unsuccessful tradition that is humbling , um, which looks , um, art, the whole of the world, not just the home you live in, not just the family you live in that, seeing all of the world as your ancestor.

Speaker 1:
1:14:05

You know , I was just about to ask you for a ritual to help us understand and make sacred the land are because we're

Speaker 4:
1:14:12

Such a mobile society. We pick up and move at a moment's notice. Uh, we moved from our, our ancestors haven't been here that long, that's an America. So , um, unless you're a native American , then you have a deep, deep history, but , uh , you've just answered that. You've just said start and looking at the simple technologies, it almost as a ritual to homestead to , um, garden and all the things that you were describing. That's an interesting way of looking at it. I hadn't really considered that before, but there's a huge movement. I know a lot of young people are going back to that, the old ways of self-sustaining, because they're afraid that nothing will be there for them as they recreate it . Um, I , I always say we should preserve all the wild horses here because we're going to need them when rata , fossil fuel.

Speaker 5:
1:15:04

Very good idea. And there's several needs to learn from people who have said to them . Yeah. But you knew that there are two things that I'd like to say about that. One is I'm remembering many years ago where the very first time we flew out to the States to teach , uh, I can't even remember when that was, it was a long time ago, 1970 something long time ago. And I remember that as we were flying over, as we went over the coastline of the United States, I remember thinking to my little kind of in a readings who helped me along and, you know, the spirits of the place. I think of them , as I said, Oh , are we welcome here? We're bringing our traditions and our beliefs are we welcome here? And the answer came back instantly. There are no borders and the other worlds ,

Speaker 4:
1:15:52

Ah , I love that .

Speaker 5:
1:15:55

So wherever you are, whether you are moving from place to place, indeed migration is happening all the time, even more it's at the moment. Um , you bring your stuff with you to some extent, and it's also finds a new home there. The other thing, going back, just a moment to the idea of the cycle of birth life, death, and resurrection phrase only just touched on this and not enough to my view and that we missed something, or he only just touched on one thing that I think is really important that I have written about this. And that's the green man, because the green man is, is a manifestation of what was being seen in the natural world and what must have been seen in the natural world from the beginning, the cyclicity of the year of life itself, the coming in to being the, going out of being coming back into being, if you accept that idea , uh , the fact that , that the natural world was dead in the winter or seemed dead, then came back into flour , then crops grew and were cut down. And the whole thing, the old song about John Barleycorn, which is one of the story , one of the songs that goes with

Speaker 6:
1:17:10

The green mountain story is all about, you know, the time has come from John Barleycorn must die because it's the time to make the beer. It's the time to cut the stuff and make the beer and so on. And I think that that one image is there and underlies all the others. I mean, if you look at the basic pattern of the story, it's there in every other myth that has to do with dying and rising. And it even has the sacrificial element because the things must be cut in order for us to live.

Speaker 4:
1:17:42

You'd be interested to know about NR trans experiences with , uh , the, the Goodman method. Um, this lesson of dying and being reborn is something that we palpably experience over and over and over again. And that there are animals. Spirits are our brothers and sisters reached need to be a responsible member of the web of life. That from earth to heaven, earth, to heaven, we have a participatory role of transmitting and receiving of being a conduit of energy over and over and over and over again. And this is something that spontaneously happens in a gestural language of symbolic language, direct knowing messages over and over. It seems that it's so deeply embedded in us that that is the content that, that realm wishes us to, to know and participate in. And so to find it in a mythologies than the eternal mythologies in myriad ways is , um , delightful over and over again. There's the reason it's so deeply embedded.

Speaker 6:
1:18:45

Yeah. Why do we recognize these things? You know, why, why was I drawn to the arts and legends? Why are other people drawn to the legends of Baerwolf for Gilgamesh or any of those things? It's not like sometimes it's a teacher or somebody who , you know, who says, you should read this, but more often than not, it's like you , you pick up something and you go, wow, that really touches me. I know that was the same thing after for me. Yeah.

Speaker 4:
1:19:12

And that's part of the joy of, as you were talking about, Kathleen is just listening to the myths and the stories. There's something that's, transportive, that's entrancing about hearing that you hear them and your whole body and mind respond to them in a certain way. Um, it wakes up some part of you , uh , that is so beautiful and eternal and precious and connecting to our ancestors. So, I mean, these were their stories. You can say that intellectually, but to imbibe them is, is , uh, another magic.

Speaker 6:
1:19:44

But also let me say something for people who've moved from their place, their background, the ancestry into another country, because wherever you are, wherever you live, your ancestors are with you. You don't leave them behind. Um, but the place that, where you're living also has its own mythology and it's by observation and being within that praying without

Speaker 7:
1:20:08

Place , um, that, that mythology becomes one with you. And so this is the way that we always are able to be renewed by the place where we live , that place, where we live , um, nourishes us. It gives us our food and our shelter. Um, um, when I say pray, pray with a place. I'm not saying pray to it. I'm saying pray with it, which is , uh , a prayer of witnessing. Maybe one day, you just go and sit somewhere. Maybe another day. You , um, you find a song is coming. When you walk past a place that feels strong to you. Um, sometimes another time when it does , you're aware of something else being there. Um, and it's like, each of these places is an ancestral bridge , uh , not just in the human sense of ancestry, but in the sense of , uh, of all the Tibbs . Um, so, you know, th this, this being , um, with the land has to come from , um, a heart of welcome, because if it comes from a place of exclusion or ignoring, we can't have any connection. And it is the connection of the place where we are, especially at the moment when we can't move about, we can only move two miles at the moment. That's all we're about allowed to do. Um, and so, you know , pray from that place, even though you cannot go to the place that you love, that's near you at the moment, you can still go to it in your meditation. You can still go to it in song and maintain that connection, because that's what holds you. That's what roots you as a tree is rooted.

Speaker 4:
1:21:54

And I think the ritual and the attention and the, I dunno, just the stirring, like the walk, the labyrinth, if you can't go to the Holy land, you can walk it and recreate it right where you are. I think that's the power of , uh, of ritual as, as well. And our intention. I also think, you know, we talked about Joseph Campbell, I'm disappointed in Joseph Campbell, and that he seemed to summarize all that. He didn't say, well, we create it because it's good. So we create the mess out of nothingness because we need them. But really, I think there's something more deeply embedded about the universe, the nature, the spirit realms about the alternate reality versus this reality of the connection between the two, about the consciousness of the universe and how it plays through us. That is so real. And I'm so disappointed in so many of the academics who , um, and those that are here are, are of the ilk of saying of, of daring and embracing it all. So, but the other academics that say, Oh, it's just so nice that humankind creates all this, but it's not real.

Speaker 6:
1:23:06

You have

Speaker 1:
1:23:06

To say about that. You know, it's like, come on, you know , let the spirits, you know , this is going to speak for them, but

Speaker 6:
1:23:14

Have a physical aspect to it as well. I think, I mean, you can study academically in every sense of that word, what that word means, or you can get down and dirty with it. I mean, I, I remember going to , um, you know, petroglyph park in Albuquerque , um, with some friends years ago and I'd come to over to teach a course on shamanism Celtic, shamanism. And , um, I w I said, I want to be, I want to be in the land please. Can you take me to somewhere where I can be in touch with the land, not in the city. So anyway, they took me out to this , this national park. And , um, and I said, now, can I go to work? Can I just go away for a minute and leave me alone? And just that it had to be with the land. And they said, well, yes. Okay. But watch out for the snakes. You know, so of course I was watching what I was going, and I was so busy watching where I was going and also praying inwardly to make me show me the contact with the place that I actually fell over. And I fell down on the ground and got a mouth full of mud. And I thought that's connecting with the land that I had to eat something before I could fill out to go on and teach the taste . It ,

Speaker 1:
1:24:29

What do you want to tell us about Celtic shamanism? That those of us who are really looking for the roots of shamanism , um, the earliest roots, what can you tell us about the Celts and, and you ,

Speaker 6:
1:24:47

That's not fair. We're almost out of time. Okay . All right . So, you know , our traditions here, which come from Ireland , um, and from Wales and , um, from what is now Scotland, the isle of man and Brittany and Califia and all the other places , uh, account council origin , um, those, those traditions , um, Han indeed give us , um, an understanding and the context, which is, think is honorable. It was a time of honor. And I feel that at the moment is one of the most important things that we have living by all truth, because it's an oral tradition. And when people said , why have you never written a book on all that you teach? Because I've been teaching with Don 30 years now, I have never written anything done of what I teach. I'm teaching it orally because that's the way I learned it. Um, so I can read the texts. Um, I can study the texts , um, but it's the living of them is where this things

Speaker 7:
1:26:04

Come in. They're learning to read from nature, being able to , um, prophecy , being able to heal. Um, these things , uh, are not things that I know they are things that are coming out of the teacher. And those are the things that we share with , with those of our students. Um, and I want to stick to this, I think because, you know , this is the way it needs to be learned, needs to be held in body and memory, and indeed in word and thought mind and heart , uh, on , on , on that's really , um, the center of it, I suppose the means by which we learn , um, are by going into the other world by means of song and other songs , um, so that we gain our own understandings and find our own pathways and doorways, and the spirits that come to us from them, maybe from any era of time, they are not just counted spirits . So I think, you know, that this is very important to say, we've had people from Africa and China and all over. Um, and of course they will always have the spirits system in the context of their spiritual imagination , because for us, the , um, the way that our, our souls work, where the task souls understand things, because a soul, the imagination is the faculty of the soul. It is , um, a site as a faculty of the eye . And that's the beautiful mid-block is the way that we understand things. So if, for example, I , I described my hast . In words, you will immediately have an imaginative understanding of it. And maybe when you come to my house, it looks different from the way you have received it, but it will feel the same.

Speaker 4:
1:28:19

I like what you're really of, of human being in right relationship with the universe. Who's fully awake. We are a repository of that knowledge, just as much as the book is we seem to want to turn to books, but it's really a living embodiment of the ancestral knowledge. We are one , they were before books, before electronics, they were, and that is the capacity of a human being. And we can be that conduit to, for the next generation. It needs to pass through us just as much as through a written word is what I'm hearing you say,

Speaker 7:
1:28:56

If it is like , um, it is like water that runs under brand. It's there all the time.

Speaker 6:
1:29:02

It's when we sink our aunties in Wells through when we think that, I mean, you know, people often say, Oh, I saw a ghost, but actually when we turn up in the other world, we're like the ghost. I was wondering about that . That was my , where people that people's practices not perfect. They may appear like a flickering ghost. Yes. So , um, but the water is running all the time that , that water, the well of knowledge is running all the time. And although we may not be repositories of it, each of us , um, we may draw up that water and drink . That's a better way to put it important to stay . And that's really, it's not quantifying it . Isn't no, I mean , from the moment you start recording something and the moment somebody starts to put a paint, some paint on the wall of a cave somewhere, they began to move away from the memory from the system of remembering and living each moment each day. Uh , and I think , uh, you know, I mean really an answer to when you said, what is Celtic shamanism? Well, of course shamanism is shamanism. It's actually pretty much the same everywhere. It's just that it has local color. So for us, when we work with that, we're working with traditional some Britain, we're working with traditions from all over the Celtic world as it used to be cool . Um, and we are remembering the things that were written about it, or that were sad about it. You know, there's a very famous collection of writings , um, or the, what are they called the Irish ones about landscape. [inaudible] that stories of place, stories of place and what these are really is, they are such a story about everything, every Hill, every Valley, every river, every field, not actually entirely the whole of Ireland, but considerable amounts of it. These were told at the time, so that you could be at any one place and they would say, Oh , uh , yeah, that's the story of whatever Scott or , or Finn was diving for salmon here and caught the salmon of wisdom. It's exactly the same thing as the native people of Australia, have they have originals, you know, where they have the song lines , you know , and there's , there's a famous story that I often tell about this story . Snyder, Gary Snyder, going out to Australia and working with the native people. And there he's driving in a truck with , with several more ancient , uh, Aboriginal leaders or shamans or whatever, and they're telling stories. And he said, as we were going, I realized that we were, as we went, let's say, shorter miles an hour, the man would speak more quickly. And then we went at 50 miles an hour and he'd go even faster because basically he was telling the story, yeah . The land as they were passing through . And according to how fast you went , there will be . So, you know , it's that, it's, that's everywhere for having us, as we say,

Speaker 3:
1:32:04

Integration of , of , of the research really helps and gives us a , uh , foundation . I a perspective. Yeah. One of the things about that, Laura and I was so encouraged by Dr. Goodwin's research. And I mentioned earlier, we did the radio show. We talked to about 3000 different interviews during those times, but she spoke with some simplicity and connectedness and universality. And that's what we're looking for is connecting with others with that same kind of voice, that same kind of understanding. Um, and that's what we were drawn to. And so we're really happy that you could come today and share your, your , a bit of research. Obviously your research, this is so fast, but we really appreciate that. Were you able to allow us to scratch the surface for the connective tissue between it, between it all? I appreciate that .

Speaker 6:
1:32:53

The thing is that like us , your practitioners, you don't just leave it on the page. Important thing. You know, the people that I most , uh , I most admire in this world are the ones who don't just write about it. They do it. But of course that makes us extremely uncooperative. And in some circles unacceptable where it's not a thing , unless you're a scientist or something in it , you should do anything to actually live it change . Well, right now there's an instruction going around from our government, telling all the universities that they should stop any original research because it's valuable and it doesn't cost too much costume . This is quantitative way of looking at education, which we will .

Speaker 3:
1:33:44

Well, you're also speaking about that really false barrier between objective and subjective and how can you really know a subject unless you dive right in experience for yourself, there's much to be said about direct experience, right ? Your , your comments on that. And then we will let you out .

Speaker 6:
1:34:01

You wouldn't ask it , you wouldn't stop someone in the street and say, could you fix my plumbing or my electricity? And you might be lucky and it might turn out that the person wasn't electric,

Speaker 3:
1:34:10

Let me look at the book , I Google it .

Speaker 6:
1:34:14

But, you know, but if you want to know about something like that, then that work , you try to find someone who's doing it, you know , and we don't advertise for it .

Speaker 3:
1:34:26

Yeah , yeah . Yeah . What would you like to say by way of conclusion? And then we will open up the phones , uh , once you're gone, just gives me a few more minutes, but what would you, what would you like to summarize? What would you most like this audience to know, or to news upon? Let's put it that way.

Speaker 6:
1:34:49

[inaudible]

Speaker 1:
1:35:16

That was beautiful. Thank you.

Speaker 6:
1:35:20

So I made the claim upon you, which is the , um, the blessing, the blessing that you put around a house or a person or your animals or your children. Um, so the coin is the protection , um , of some

Speaker 1:
1:35:35

And protection of Saul . Thank you so much. And thank you for all the work that you've done for many, many decades and the daring , um, pushing the envelope and really keeping it all alive. Yeah,

Speaker 6:
1:35:47

Yeah. They say in Scotland. Well continue. If we're not, we'll come back and do it another time. So let us go there.

Speaker 1:
1:35:58

All right . Thanks so much. Bye-bye bye-bye

Speaker 2:
1:36:01

Yeah , it's a big universe out there and lots more to explore. I hope you join us next time. Thanks for listening. I'm Marley .