Ritual Postures, Ritual body Postures, Ancient Ritual Postures

Social Change, New Vision, Integration of the Sacred – Guest: Brian Tucker

The Role of MythoPoetic Experience and Imagination in Social Change
Guest: Brian Tucker
Brian consults with individuals and organizations on ways to integrate spirituality, technology and social justice, using insights from Big History, Cosmology, Vedanta, Torah, Yoga and Nature. Here, he shares the role the mythopoetic imagination might play alongside science and direct experience on a mythpoetic level with Cuyamungue Institute’s work with Ecstatic Trance Postures in increasing our awareness of our sacred Cosmos. Brian joined us from Trenton, New Jersey

Paul Robear and Laura Lee are the directors of the Cuyamungue Institute. Here they invite guest speakers in related fields to help further broaden the scope of the ongoing research of the Cuyamungue Institute looking closer at parallel fields of study, to plunge deeper and learn more as to advance the understanding of  Trance states.  An anthropological research organization  with the focus on altered states of consciousness (ASCs) … https://www.cuyamungueinstitute.com/

Laura Lee:
0:00

Welcome to conversation for exploration. I'm your host Lee

Speaker 2:
0:24

[inaudible] .

Laura Lee:
0:26

Hi and welcome. I'm Laura Lee sitting down with Brian Tucker author and social change agent. we all agree that humanity is needing a new story for itself, a new route, a new vision t hat we really can't continue as we have been. The planet is protesting. We i n our hearts are protesting and yet how do we change? How do we change on a global scale? As we all agree, we must and we need to, and we, I think have a shared vision. We just want life to be better, to make more sense to return to the sacred. I'd say, Brian has the theory of change and we're here to discuss that. Hi, Brian and welcome.

Brian Tucker:
1:13

Hey, hi, Laura. Great to be here with you.

Laura Lee:
1:16

A theory of change. Oh, so much thought has been put to how do we actually change? And it, what hits points of psychology, sociology, history, neurology , um, the whole gamut. Um, what kind of change are we talking about and how do you come to a theory about how we can do it and then how to implement it?

Brian Tucker:
1:41

Yeah. Um, well, I'm looking at it from many points of view and it's astonishing. those of us, you know, here in the West, we o bserved technology and society and advances. U m, when we think about how, how the process of change has advanced over a historical period of time, u m, we don't see as much attention in our culture to really teach or develop or improve upon the way we as humans w ho actually change. I m ean, I t hink r eally the notion that we as a species and other species actually do some kind of evolutionary change is a relatively young notion in our culture, maybe to Darwin a nd, and earlier, but Darwin certainly s eemed to have been among those shaping the notion that biologically, if not, you know, u m, psychologically as well that, you know, V Cs are subject to the process of change, but I haven't really seen a great interest in a great, u m, explanation of how it is we as a species are, are to accomplish that change. And, you know, as we are all have all been moving through this period of time of a pandemic, u m, a p eriod where there's kind of a loss in the trust of our governing process here in the West, u m , w hich I think of is actually, a period of time of, a los s of imagination. It's really hit me more strongly than need to speculate about how we can get better at changing as a species. And it sp ur red me along this direction.

Laura Lee:
3:22

Well, evolutionary changes on such a huge long scale. And we look at it as our bones change. Our fossils have changed in order to adapt to new conditions or to hone their, their skills with their environment. But you're talking more about what the behavior of humans, which is just as elusive , but just as set with biological imperatives that shape us and have been dictated by nature to help us survive and thrive just like any other species. Um, tell me more about evolutionary change in how you're relating to this. Do you think we're changing on a huge scale and that we are in control of it more than nature itself could be

Brian Tucker:
4:10

Certainly, I'd have to say, you know, in the last six to nine months, I've personally witnessed the greatest amount of change in my entire lifetime, you know, just by noticing how our culture here in the West, and I'm sure around the globe, we've all had to adjust to cohabitating with this , um, changing we call right now, COVID 19 . I, I've not really witnessed such a dramatic change. Now, my, you know, my ancestors, perhaps during the time of world war two , I had an uncle and , um, you know, family members that were directly involved in , in another big period of change that hit at least, u m, you know, the world. So I it's, it's, it's really struck me at how rapidly we've had to learn to adapt and how much further we have to go as humans in order to survive, this type of challenge. And I think this is a small, a smaller kind of challenge in the fa ce o f what could be even larger forces such as climate crisis, or really re inventing t he notion of democracy, or maybe finally realizing democracy in a truer form than what we currently experience it in . So,

Laura Lee:
5:26

And pandemics have come and gone. Um, some scientists now are theorizing that it was microbes that help to wipe out the dinosaurs. I don't know how they would come up with that theory, but I've read it. And , um, um, viruses now are , supposed to be, DNA. People can trace scientists, can trace viral infections and their imprint on DNA in some species that lead to huge change. I think it's associated with placenta and mammals was a virus. Um, so it's, it's come and gone. I want to say something. Yeah. And we're so much more complicated and al l the other species we have so much more moving parts to us. Um, ma ybe that's a blessing.

Brian Tucker:
6:14

I just want to add, you know, a key thing that has really stayed with me. It comes from dark Darwin's notion , um, that he really felt that the species that were successfully able to evolve weren't necessarily the strongest nor the most intelligent, but rather the survival of a particular species seem to depend on it at death adaptability to a rapidly changing environment. So I was like, well, so you're really not the most intelligence , not the strongest, it's the most adaptable. And if that's the case, then how do we learn to be as adaptable as let's say, birds, who can grow longer beaks over successive generations. So they have advantage foraging for food and gathering nutrients from plants. You know, what is the adaptive change at it? We as humans need to make a to T in order to cope with a rapidly changing world. I personally

Laura Lee:
7:09

That technology is changing our attention span and how we process information. So even the rule that we build has a feedback loop and it's imprinting us in certain ways and our very DNA, perhaps who knows, I don't know what, what all those mechanisms of change are. Um, but yeah, adaptability is one reason humans are , what the dominant species now,

Brian Tucker:
7:37

You know, I think that same ability that we have and which has perhaps led us to be a dominant species is perhaps also potentially our downfall. and that's what concerns me is that, you know, Brian Sw imme T h omas Berry, they speak about this notion of symbolic consciousness, having now taken hold of us in a new way and not necessarily a better way and social media and these devices, they don't necessarily point us back to our essential nature, but they become, they could potentially become distractions at a time where, you know, life really needs us to be present. Um , o ur ancestors perhaps are asking us to be present here an d n ow with nature. And, you know, we've got some of the greatest gift of symbolic consciousness from the wisdom that, you know, we ar e o ur great works of literature or ou r m u sic c ultural legacies that we've been able to preserve, but this notion that we're somehow able to attune to the wisdom of nature seems to el ude u s. An d, and that's a key thing that I, I, yo u k n ow, I feel is i mportant for us to follow right now.

Laura Lee:
8:49

And certainly our ancestors did , um, the ones that survived. Right? Yeah. So a theory of change , um, where have you looked for this? What are the, what are the moving parts here for them ?

Brian Tucker:
9:01

Well, you know , so I have to admit the first part of this came to me in my work at the non-profit , um, human services, nonprofit , where we hired a consulting firm to come in and to help us define what would become our theory of change. And, and they really presented it to us as, u m, w hat, what's the North star for our organization? Y ou k now, what is our guiding principle? How could we articulate the way that we take our participants into t he various programs and strive to make their lives better, or to offer them hope or a better way. And they challenged us to come up with metrics once we had that theory of change. So, you know, that made a deep impression upon me. And I began to think, well, if that could be done in our n onprofit, you know, why isn't it b e done culturally societaly where are the thinkers? And I know they're out there , um, you know, a person I was very fond of , and h ave been very fond of is Bob Keegan out of Harvard who writes a book on immunity to change and d iscuss i s really a very elaborate process in which he believes change happens. But also that we simultaneously do block the things, t he, the things that are necessary for us to change as humans, we have like an immune response to the very things that could potentially make our lives better. U m, as I've been sort of looking around me to see, well, who are those thinkers, u m, that have a very credible theory of change, and I've also been trying to encourage organizations to consider how do they articulate that theory of change and get better at it? You know, h ow if you can measure it, then you, if you can measure it, you can potentially do it even more effectively. So, you know, m y, I would say like the human services n on-profit led me to consider how is this being played out in the larger context of our culture? And I honestly j ust say, I'm, I'm really putting it out there to learn from other people and get some more ideas. C ause I, you know, I really have just a small slice of that knowledge and I want to expand my thinking with the help of others.

Laura Lee:
11:16

So you're, jumpstarting a dialogue on it.

Brian Tucker:
11:20

I would really like to see a dialogue on this and have some credible ideas come out of it. Um, what do you think about , well, one , um, one thing that impressed me was , the work that has come out of, u m, again, you know, my fondness for T homas Berry and, Brian swim. So Nancy Abrams and her husband, Joel Premack, J oel was a, u m , a physicist and Nancy as an author as well. They described a very interesting theory of change. They said that basically people can change very quickly to become the larger person they're meant to be. And people don't change from learning facts, but from discovering that a big new identity is available to them, one that's meaningful and exciting and connects them to people. They want to be a part of. So, you know, I think that's a really interesting articulation of how people change. They don't change because you present them with new facts, but they discover a big new identity, a meaningful new identity, and it generates excitement and enthusiasm, joy, and there's an alignment to that. It draws them from a deeper level and they want to connect with, there are people that are part of that vision that they want to connect with. So it's also very relational. Um, they go on to , they've gone to describe, this is how we fall in love and how addicts recover and how people have a spiritual awakening. Um, they see it as an ability that all of us has , um, have , um, and are they also feel like our species is very central to the cosmos and central to the future of the earth and , and offer, perhaps it were alive at a pivotal moment and we may be poised as one of the most important generations to accomplish that great change that, that great returning, but we need to live up to this identity. What is that identity that we need to live up to that could transform the world? And I think

Laura Lee:
13:24

My mother said, you know, it's hard to change when you have a stick at you, but if you put a carrot at the end of the stick, and then you want to follow that , that you vision much easier to , to change, yes, you push it . You're pulling

Brian Tucker:
13:41

The context of the [inaudible] Institute. And , um, from my, you know, many sessions of trans with you now, from the time that you started back in April , um, what I've seen is the potential for these altered States to begin to offer us a greater glimpse of that larger self of that larger reality. Um, and some experiences of tapping into something beyond the culture, the cultural dialogue , and tuning into that inner dialogue that only, you know , kind of reverie and imaginative mind can, can generate , um, with the, with the trans fosters, the ecstatics transporters, they seem to be able to make accessible more that, that reverie state of mind, much like dreams, you know, from what streams come ,

Laura Lee:
14:33

It seems like that is the voice of nature. You talked about a tuning to the wisdom of nature and in the ecstatic trans posture experience, you feel that nature is talking with you in various guises. Yeah. And certainly a motivator. Yeah . Um, and certainly joyful and exciting and meaningful. So thank you. Yeah. I would agree with that. So, so , um, that is , a guiding principle in North star would be, there's the wisdom of the universe all around you. Can you partake of it? Can you align with it? Y es. U m, and not just on an intellectual level, but on a experiential direct experience level. Yes. S o

Brian Tucker:
15:18

Interesting. You know, when you actually do go out , um, and you see, you really can't detect this with the naked eye, but in imagery that's filmed, you know, the thing about the North star is that it remains fixed in the sky. Everything else seems to revolve around it. Um, the, you know, just really a great metaphor. It's like, what is that fixed place you view outwardly, but where is that inwardly in you as well? You know, what, what is that guiding principle, which acts in a simple way that you see in the cosmos know the planets, the solar system, the galaxy seems to be revolving in such a way that that stays fixed. It's an illusion it's still everything's in movement, but it does seem to stay fixed

Laura Lee:
16:06

Evolution. It would be that , the principles of cooperation and, u m, and love are more powerful than the competition and d oggy dog. What do you want to draw from Darwin and evolutionary theory about those forces at play? Yes. Yeah. That's i t. Another new metaphor that's been, tr ied i t out over the recent decades. Um , d elightfully. So what else do you have?

Brian Tucker:
16:33

I want to say another motivator for me has been , um, some of my Sundays with the , Indian community here in New Jersey, largely within the Hindu tradition. Um , b ut I I've, I've thought about w t he quote that's attributed to Gandhi, which is to be the change that you wish to see in the world. And when I dug a little bit more, I found out, well, that may not actually be what Gandhi said. It goes more, something like this. And I can read this to you is attributed more to say that we bought mirror the world. All the tendencies present in t he outer world are to be found in the world of our body. If we could change ourselves, the tendencies in the world would also change as a man changes his own nature. So does the attitude of the world ch anged t owards him? This is the divine mystery Supreme, a w onderful thing. It is. And the source of our happiness, we need not wait to see what others do. So, so in pondering that I thought, okay, you know , how could I begin to change myself? In what ways might've interchange help to , contribute to a societal change. A nd, and so it's helped me shift my thinking t hat feeling that I need to change the world. And I definitely can see all the different ways a nd w ork to the world does need to change. I'm also reminded that the vehicle c hange starts within each one of us and, u m, these transformational p roduct, u m, practices, you know, embodied practices like ecstatic, tr ance-like y oga like meditation and other fo rms. These are all avenues in which we can be the change that we wish to see in the world as well. Um , a nd we can open up the channels to that North star in us, our inner guidance and allow it to come through an d d irect to change. We don't have to consciously get involved in deciding what to change or not. We n eed to attune and listen carefully to the guidance that we receive and act on it and be discerning as well. You know, it should be bringing joy to b ring, bringing light and love into the world. Um , t hose are the, some of the qualities we look for when we're acting from that place of g uidance

Laura Lee:
18:52

And in practical terms, how does that manifest

Brian Tucker:
18:57

Well? So I see it manifesting right now, these rather informal communities , b ecause so many of us are experiencing the lockdown stage. We're turning to zoom in, unprecedented ways. We're connecting with our colleagues from around the world who are like hearted and like-minded right. No , I, I can be talking with you, but I can also be mindful of my friends down under, and, u m , y ou know, in India in C hina. And I can feel somewhat that I'm not alone in this effort. We're all kind of simultaneously waking up, but, you know, if we had the ability to discuss and really look at credible ways in which change happens and, u m , b e able to guide one another more successfully th an n avigate that change, I think, I think it'd be a way of tending to and caring for others that would be remarkable

Laura Lee:
19:49

And sharing notes along the way, sharing our stories is this inspired.

Brian Tucker:
19:55

I'm like, I'm not a farmer Otto, Scharmer talks about this as , um , building kind of a technology and infrastructure, illiteracy of transformation. And, you know, you think about, well, what we have a lot of cultural literacy, but we don't have a great literacy around change and transformation. So what could we do to build that literacy?

Laura Lee:
20:17

Yeah, wouldn't it be nice if there were more popular films and , um, stories and more mythology around positive change, if that gripped us as consumers, as much as the , doom and gloom and, terrorist acts and police, whatever the content of most, most media out there is because the media will follow what the audience wants. Right. It's just out there to pull eyeballs. Um , s o maybe just as they say, we vote with our dollar, maybe we vote with our attention and, a nd what we're willing to consume.

Brian Tucker:
21:02

Yes. Yes. Well, and perhaps that's part of why the star Wars saga is so popular

Laura Lee:
21:08

Because it's knowing you. Yeah.

Brian Tucker:
21:11

Lots of change. Um, you know, led by, at the start follows, it follows the sequence of the hero's journey. You know, as Joseph Campbell had delineated the hero with a thousand faces , from a period of crisis, emerged this great Epic journey, u m , t hat so many people from around the world identify with that story. so maybe our, you know, our mythology is also kind of ancient narrative, Michael Mea de, a nd others really gui de to to u r tu rning to our , o ur an cient mythology as a prescription for positive change.

Laura Lee:
21:45

I want to tell you that I had a friend she's passed away now, sadly, but Gwen Spencer, who would teach the hero journey as a personal story that you should write for yourself and change what you don't like about your own story , um, so that you give yourself a new ending and a new pathway. And when you were talking about the need for a new identity, an exciting and meaningful new identity to embrace that like new possibilities in your life, it reminded me of Gwen's work, and she would teach this to , all sectors of society and all ages. And the premise was I took her course, here's the hero's journey. Now start to write your own life in those terms, as a myth, and as a story, is there a part that you don't like rewrite it? Is there a new ending for yourself, a renew, a new, a pathway for yourself? Where do you want to go puts you in control of your life and your narrative, but she made this other real, real, insightful , comment. She said after we've done it all she said n ow, have you noticed that there seems to be a larger hand at work that you were, co-writing your own story with and yeah. The synchronicities and t he, the sense of fate and destiny, the sense of the impulses, the doors that would suddenly fly, open the doors that flew shut on you. U m, yeah. So j ust t hat to put that in, b ut there are techniques out there to help us r eimagine ourselves and maybe, u m, not as a figment, but as truly finding our destiny. Yes, yes. Yeah. If we, if we tune i nto that larger force of the universe, they say, is it written in the stars? And I would say, not astrology for me. I know that's a very , um, well loved , um, interpretation of the stars . But I would say if you're aligned with the universe, if you're aligned with nature, if you are , they're tuning in, i n this deep, deep way of ecstatic trance or deep meditation or whatever your technique is, because there's so many to tune and a ligned with the universe, then that is how it writes that those stars are right there, u m, as guiding lights in your story. S o it is dissolving your small boundary and e mbracing the larger, and getting a glimpse of what life could hold for you and what life wants for you or what your role here on earth is, where w wh at, what is the meaning of your life? Maybe it's already wr it a nd it's for us to discover each for ourselves. Um , t hat is the hero's journey.

Brian Tucker:
24:40

Yeah . Yeah. I think we're living at a time right now. We have so many , helpers along the way, you know, a great aid to us right now is the wisdom that's coming out of the realm of science unexpectedly. You know, science is cl uing us in that we're living in a far more mysterious, complicated universe. That's evo lved ov er 13.7 billion years. And , a nd as simple, a n element is h yd rogen and appears to be, you know, out of that, hydrogen is c om e an a ma zing complexity of forms, um , and all at stages that no one could necessarily predict would follow from, you kno w , th e emergence of particles into the emergence of stars and galaxies, you know, that would give wis e to hippos and giraffes. You know, um , I w as thinking about the notion of, um , loo king to the stars and the most beautiful one that appeared in my, in my heart was the notion that everything I have really derives from the power of the sun, everything brings me comfort. Calm comes aren't from our nearest star, the warmth , the electricity, you know, if it wasn't for Lance ability to take those photons of light in and photosynthesize, you know, we wouldn't have a ability to ingest and have energy in our bodies. T here's so many stages, no wonder our ancients knew to honor father son, and they didn't only honor fa ther s on, th e h onored, u m , s ister moon. And, and they ceremonially honored the ancestors in the forms of the stars, u m , k nowing that maybe intuitively elements that are here in the human de rive f rom those very processes that occurred in the stars explosion an d t h ere, yo u k n ow, supernova stages. So , u m , i t's, it's quite amazing how indigenous wisdom seems to have comprehended that, you know, and Western science says that they discovered it as well, but very, yeah, they ma de j u st a new language for it an d a n ew way, right? We're living in a very interesting time to help us process our own hero's journey, u m , a n d m a ke s ense of what this gr and l ife is about.

Laura Lee:
27:08

You know, they say the dung beetle follows the Milky way that it has sensors in its tiny little insect body to note where the light of the arm in the Milky way is overhead. And it uses that to find its way in the middle of the desert. And I'm thinking, well, if a dung beetle can do it, certainly we are also imbibing all that Starlight, all that download of information and whatever that dark matter out there in the universe wants to give us that we're also tuned to this, that it's really on such a cosmic level. And if the universe is evolving, then we're a piece of that just like every other species and world evolving along with it. Right ? And so we do ourselves a favor to open up to it and align with it so that the wind is in our sails , that the spirits are there guiding our way. It just seems a much more sensible way to navigate through life is to encourage engage, elicit, open, to surrender to that larger power. Like may, may the force be with you, let's go back to star Wars. So I do have something I want to say. Um, I don't, are you done with your , your list for now, because I do want to, this is a good moment to say this. I think that, although I'm not a reader of science fiction, although I did read the hunger games because I fought this whole series of brilliant and had a lot to say about , um, our society today and social media and the power of television and distraction of persuasion and opening up our brains and just letting it fill it in without discernment , almost like the M o like a Roman gladiator, you know, for the, for the future i s it was projecting it. So I thought that, that I read, but I'm not a big reader of fiction, not since I graduated from high school. Um, and other things I think nonfiction has much more to tell us about the mystery of the world and it's stranger than fiction , in large part. But I w ant t o say that I really think that a role for science fiction is to try on new, new imagination, new possibilities for ourselves as, as a h umanity going forward. And people have cited, J uul sun burn as it's has to be imagined before it can come into reality, the star Wars technology of the tri-quarter and th eir technology, the transporter, and all of that. Um, ev en my father likes to cit e Di ck Tracy and his watch, and now we have the, A p ple watch and all of that. So s ci ence fiction seems to be that arena in which we can pla y and display, um , and stir the pot and just kind of see an i ma g ined fut ures for ourselves. So I think it's very handy, but I think that there's two scenarios in science fiction that I haven't seen, but I'd love to see, because I think this could help , shed some light on where we're going. And number one is I would love to see a movie where it opens and there were rituals going on around the world, the Tibetan monks, and trying to keep order a nd chaos aligned and trying to keep the demons at Bay or whatever, whatever, all these rituals that have been happening until the 20th century pretty much went in and invaded and displaced and, and, you know, the whole story. But if, if we could just understand the power of ritual and that maybe it had a role in helping to maintain the balance and, t he sun coming up, the su n setting, t he solstice returning going back on, you know, if, if we could just see the power of ritual and, and see that maybe it had a role, and we need to continue that maybe a new way s, n ew exp ress th ings of that, but it had a role and that the world would slowly go out of kilter. If it wasn't for the attention that humanity paid to try to help it to appeal to it, to honor it, to ask it kindly, please let's continue , with the order of nature and the order of the universe, and we'll do our best to align to it. And we deserve it. U m, I think that would be such an interesting Sci-Fi movie. And the other one would be that we can see that the 20th century, that the, that the age of industrialism a nd science wanted to push our knowledge of magic off the charts and just push it off to superstition and where you're no longer, this is not real. We can't do this. And so humanity bumbles along, and we think it's a "wysiwyg, what you see is what you get world", and we've pushed God off the, the totem pole as well. And we put ourselves up at the top and you can, you can write our worldview right here. Um, we think that it's just a dead universe and a dying clock that's winding down, right. But then we realized suddenly through a few change agents , um, and, underground, that's been existing all along that, Hey, there's something to that. We can invite the spirits that we can open doorways, that there really is something , more to the world a nd what we know it's, it's the dance, all of our communities dancing and celebrating, Hey, there's, there's much more to this universe. And then we have to decide how do we put it back so that it's not utilized by bad forces or as good and bad, always in a dance. U m, can we ever all, enlist this help just for a positive future? Is that always going to be a struggle? Is the Wolf always going to want to take down the deer and it's to the de er's b enefit because it sharpens its it senses and keeps it, D e v olving, i n t he , in t he way that it should, that's a page out of your universe is a new story. Um, so it just seems to me that we should be, we should be exploring more of this in science fiction. I'm not, I'm not sure if you follow science fiction or , um, if you value it in quite the same way I do, although I'm not a big science fiction fan, I don't find much of it if that one's interest to me. Um, although I did like the game of Thrones, I thought that was pretty spectacular, but what do you think about that as an arena or as I appreciate Ursula Gwyn , who would say fiction or the lies we tell in order to tell the truth? Yes , but it seems a safe place to spin out various scenarios and it does follow the hero journey. There is that story arc, it does take into account human nature and all the different archetypes that we deal with in life, the challenges in life and it's play in display of it in , myriad, ta les i s, is interesting. Should there, should it also ha ppen i n Sa ifai t hat we tr ot o ut these new imaginings and see where they end up?

Brian Tucker:
34:35

Well, I, I, I completely agree. And I , I do enjoy science fiction protectively well-crafted um, yeah , no , the , the one that has that that's a logical theme through it. star Wars being a n example, recently I've been enjoying Hilary Swank in the Netflix series called away that describes a mission that the earth has, you know, a embarked upon to habitate Mars. An d, and it's an interesting metaphor. I mean, I, I don't literally take that as being the way of the future, but it's an interesting metaphor that we have of, of the desire to leave this planet and experience another world. Um , I think it 's, it's very im aginative. It allows us to work out a great deal of, u m , s ome of our ax ed a bout are the ways that we're currently living. Um , i t's very well acted and, and gives us a lot of ways to, to think through a possible Future. You know, personally, I hope we continue to care for the earth without feeling the need to leave it. Um, you know, in ha in happening places like now there is no planet B no planet our planet, so it's going to change our mindset, but I also admire the mindset that would want to take us to the moon or to the stars. I think that's, I really identified with the spirit of that. Another thing that occurs to me is , um, in addition to science fiction are , is the role of the documentary. And there is a documentary by the name of Baraka , which is a phrase that's , that means blessing. And , the movie follows basically 20 across c orny four countries and over six continents, u m, a way in which, u m, communities act out this message of blessing and sometimes towards horrific results sometimes towards liberating results. It shows you the gamut. And, it's quite a remarkable exploration of sort of our response to a p articipatory involvement in, in nature

Laura Lee:
36:53

That you're saying Baraka B a R a K a Baraka , the composer to that, Michael Stearns has been on a workshop for our art and spirit workshop in Santa Fe. He's a Santa Fe resident , um, his wife joy. So yeah, he talked about composing. Um ,

Brian Tucker:
37:10

Yeah , yeah , absolutely gorgeous in the film. The filming of that is absolutely gorgeous and it's as much like the COIA knots , c on s quat C series, u m, that, that was done by, Godfrey ra dios, u m , f ilming. But, but, B araka has a very interesting take on our evolving nature. And in fact, it uses some of the metaphors you de scribed earlier, you know, the, I think the y re ly upon the solar eclipse as one of the sem inal sy mbols of change, d r iving this cul turally driving a so c ietaly,

Laura Lee:
37:50

It does feel like a pendulum swinging back and forth slow .

Brian Tucker:
37:54

I do feel like science fiction arena, and documentary's a great arena. You know, the fantasy magical fantasy world films are also quite wonderful.

Laura Lee:
38:06

I want to tell you a story about, and the question will be who were the heroes? What is the mythology what's important for the next generation? Um, one of my favorite used bookstores where we find a lot of books of interest in anthropology and ancient, indigenous art and such , um, the guys who are running it now, two young guys because the founder sadly passed away in his , old age. So, you know, the elders fall to the wayside and think having some youngsters are picking it up as a mission and carrying it forward. But I was complimenting them for maintaining the books because they're hard to find and they're valuable and they just don't need to end up in a , in t he trashy, thank you for making these books accessible and recite, you know, finding new. And they said, h a i s t hat young people aren't reading anymore. And they don't value these books. And we're kind of worried about our future for this , bookstore. These are really valuable books. They're hard to find they're academic they're of great knowledge of the past. They're not always on Google. They're not always being, u m, made accessible. T hey're t hey're limited quantities, short runs. What's going to happen to this. Who's going to house them 10, 20, 30 years, a hundred years from now. Where's this g onna go? And then, Santa Fe has a lot of antiquities, s hows Indian mar ket Sp anish market. So in In dian market, there are dealers that wou ld fi ll up the Santa Fe convention hall with these original artifacts. There's one dealer in particular who has artifacts from the Maya and, a n d the Mesoamerican cultures. And they 're gor geous, intact, beautiful, expensive, ar t ifacts. Many of which are, one s that we use in our accountant, give us the postures in our , C ana d a postures. And so talking with the dealer there who took it over from his father , um, we're chatting. And he says, you know, I am now getting back antiquities that my father sold when the elder dies and the kids inherit it . They no longer want this stuff. They're too busy traveling. They're downsizing. They don't see any need for it. They're not passionate about it. They don't honor it. And I end up with a bag now I'm reselling it. He goes, my market's dwindling. The people who value and honor the stuff and get how's the stuff , um, this dwindling. And I'm so sad to hear about this. Um, cause I'm wondering, you know, who is going to value these artifacts and care, take them for the future? Are we dug all this stuff up? Maybe it should just go back in the ground and peacefully clientele , generation and future can honor it again. Who's going to take care of all this stuff. Um, and what are the values, the core values for the younger generation, who are the stories, who are the myths? What, what is the, what is the story that's being told? Where, what are they valuing? I I'm wondering about this because it seems to me that yeah, nature is speaking to us directly and our transport . We seem to be able to take a posture, look at the, take an artifact in ancient artifact, from a certain culture, look at the posture, do our ritual using that posture, simple sitting or standing posture and without anybody knowing what the culture is. Cause we don't tell them, we don't show them the artifact until afterwards elements of a story. Come forward. Lessons about the cycles of nature, about life birth and life, death, and rebirth about soaring, about all these beautiful life lessons come forward, elements of this. And then an , wonderful a rcheologist has been attending with us and she'll pull down a pot and start reading i t symbology and relating it to our experiences. People who know nothing of the context, w e'll still get this. So it seems to me that even i n our artifacts, even in our rituals, whether a ritual is born of the spirits or r e e mbedded this through our practice and our mythology over the years, doing the morphogenetic morphogenetic field as a Rupert Sheldrake, u m, CIS founder queen monkey, I nstitute's founder P hyllis's Goodman was very fond of Rupert Sheldrake and h is morphic or morphogenetic field are we i mprinting it in this? Are we creating Headspace that continues a memory field? I d on't k now how it works, but I'm kind of wondering because that stuff has lasted through millennia, is it they're embedded so deeply that it will continue for future generations when they open up that portal and pull that wisdom blessed with that wisdom, w on't be the same story. Will it be a different story or there's multiple stories that nature has a teacher. So I'm assuming as we evolve and we're just pulling the ones that are appropriate for us, where our ears are tuned to hear it. I don't know how it works, but it's rather fascinating to be in dialogue with the universe in this way, with the deep, deep, the deep core, u m, this way and, u m, how the symbols maybe arise again. And again and again. U m, I don't know. What do you think

Speaker 5:
43:53

The company of , um, other, other , um, researchers and authors and the thought , y ou k now, storytellers, great storytellers like, u m, for example, Joseph Campbell and you know, who, who found a way to sort of take the cultural imagination into these archetypes of the past and help us see how they're being reinterpreted in modern times. And he would talk about how the y oung o r younger than us let's say a re dancing to these archetypes w ith oftentimes not even really knowing what their origins are about, but that there's

Laura Lee:
44:30

Still speaks to because it is of them. Yeah. I think I'd go back into them,

Speaker 5:
44:36

My understanding of own and the collective unconscious in this concept of archetypes that , um, you know, the work that among gay sits up on might be touching into some deeper , um, psychic old , psychic archetypes that have always been present in the Humana nation and are asking to be born a new each generation onward . Um, it would be a shame to see your work become frozen and static, for example, but then ULI , you know , reinterpreted , um, and as stewards as you and Paul, you know, if it must be somewhat bittersweet to see , you know, this work, I'm not quite sure how it's going to find a home, but trusting that it will find a home in the world. You know, you're, you're sort of doing the work. You're kind of, a w a ystation i n a sense yo u a r e m aking it available and trusting. It will find its way out into the world. But, you know, I think it 's, it i s interesting to think about others who have done some more work like this. And, u m , I personally feel like I've benefited so much from this work, but also from my encounter with the power of myth and Joseph Campbell and bill, you know, I kind of,

Laura Lee:
45:53

When you hear the truth, it resonates within you and it lights, it lights up, lights, your soul up. Yeah. So, well, I want to say that our ancient ancestors, you know, we , we went back to France and looked at all the painted caves of 20,000 years ago, looked at the culture trot on that ground, put our hands on the cave walls and just really wanted to grok who our ancestors were in that way and looking around and thinking about how they read the sky, read the earth, tasted the earth, tasted the wind, felt the wind, the birds, the animals around them, just the molecules around them. They read this as you and I read the written word that the mythology sprung from their natural world. We go to Oola and we go to the Outback of Australia and we're told that every Mark on Uluru, what air's rock was part of the mythology. Here's the footprint of the substance , such being here's where they sat down and did this. Here's where they did that. And so I'm thinking, well , um, I , you know, I walk, we have this beautiful Malamute Wolf named chance and walking hand . He was such a majestic being in a first suit. Um, just walking him and looking at his nose and sniffing and what he was taking in and what he would look at. And my philosophy of walking a dog was let that you're you're on a lead, right? You're on a leash, let follow where they want to go. They've got a nose , they've got a mindset where they're exploring. They've sat patiently all day, waiting for you to walk them, let them go where they want to go. I hate seeing people force a dog around a track, come on, let them go take you along. Let them be the lead, but just watching him and just consuming his environment and reading it. I'm like, wow, what tails ? Every molecule that you encounter, chances telling you, I can't even imagine what your brain is as imagery. So it just similar to that. I mean , we're just taking it all in and creating stories. Don't you wonder what those stories were to those very, very ancient, ancient people. But I think like Joseph Campbell says, it's the same story. It's just writ with different characters, RIT with a few variants, but it's the same basic story. And that was his genius. Um , taking the whole world's mythologies and saying it's, here are these essential steps of the story just like Goodman did to the world's rituals here. These are the essential steps of the ritual . And this is what your physiology knows. It is reading these cues and it will automatically open up for you this whole other realm. Um , you will cross that magical threshold as Joseph Campbell says and have this adventure before returning home again, gifted. Um, it's just so beautiful. I just, I take heart and I agree with you that the next generation and the generations to follow, there's only one story. You can't really escape it. You can vary it. You can sing it in a different tune. You can sing it to a different beat, but it's the same story. And that's , what's fascinating. I will say at the end of her life, one of the last newsletters we had that were the printed newsletters for the queen Liga Institute, we have this wonderful saying by Felicitas I'm the founder. And she said, we must keep this work skin to lighting for the next generation. And I only wish that I could see how it will evolve and what , new stories that w e'll have to tell, u m, that this work has to remain revelent, relevant, rather relevant to, e ach generation in turn, as it has to us. And I also want to state that we don't know how ancient peoples performed this ritual H distinctive unto themselves, but we believe that it followed the same basic steps , um, and that we are performing it in a way at Goodman formulized as optimal for the most people to have the most success and people do for the very first time , surprisingly, and often, but as long as you follow the basic steps, you're within the parameters of it. You're just one variant in a whole universe of the same song, the same story, the same ritual. And that's where it's so beautiful. So you're right, Brian, our mission is to hold up the tent poles and invite people in to come and play and rediscover this piece of their DNA that they didn't know they had. Here are the here's the keys to the vehicle to travel. Here's the on switch to throw open the doors. Um , s o that's all we're trying to do. We don't believe it's ever go ing t o g o away. We believe it's so deeply embedded within our DNA, and that is probably more primal than the spoken word. Um , a nd, and what we use today. We're just evolving. We're just one more arm of the spiral. Um , a s the Nautilus unfolds and grows, I guess, and isn't there a beauty in that it w a s t rue beauty in that,

Brian Tucker:
51:21

And as a true archeologist, you know, you're, you're dusting off layers that we may not be able to see the essential form , because of our cultural conditioning, but because you've dusted the way the layers, you can present them in a pure form, here are the essential forms of this ritual, and now co ming, give it a try. It's an invitation. I think you, you sort of offer younger people a w a y t o awaken their imagination again, and their intuition. Um , a nd as yo ur t r uer t o this work is like Chris va n p o ol t alks, you know, as an ar cheologist, u m , a n thropologists, y ou're able to dust away and bring a new understanding to this artifact, to these artifacts or for a modern time.

Laura Lee:
52:09

And , and those cultures, and I will say it works. So we must Goodman must've hit upon the formula that works. Um, and so those essential steps who knows what else you can do with it, that's the exciting part , um, who knows, what else is the possibilities? Future generations will lead us there. Um, we're just starting to throw up in the door and say, here, look at this, look what , look at another piece of you to discover. I always find it interesting that like with star Trek, we talked about star Wars with star Trek space, the final frontier. Oh, indeed. But there's the outer space and our ordinary reality. And there's this vast universe of the inner space in the non-ordinary reality and , ordinary different from normal. I was explaining that to someone the other day. Yeah. It's normal to do this. It's within our natural God-given capacity to do this, but it's not ordinary normal and ordinary are two different things. I t should be more ordinary. So i t should be more first, but anyway. Okay. Let's get back to your list of, change. Thank you for that fund departure.

Brian Tucker:
53:24

Well, just reminds me,

Speaker 5:
53:26

You know, what you've shared so far, it goes back to Nancy Abrams , you know, talking about , um, learning ways to become that larger person that we're meant to be. Um , I think, I think culturally we're, we're not necessarily taught to think big or to imagine ourselves as powerful in the context alongside other others who are similarly powerful. you know, w e're, w e're maybe taught to be, t hink of ourselves as being small or that our e ffect as a people can't be great. And so, you know, I wonder if some of these technologies here that the ancients had preserved were to help give people a way forward the human soul, a w ay forward and evolution of that soul a way forward. so it just reminds me again about the need to re articulate a theory of change that is really credible and powerful for the time in which we're living

Laura Lee:
54:23

To experience the larger self is I think the best way to really get that you are so much more than your social self or your society or your current worldview that you're living under and society has allowed you to believe so.

Brian Tucker:
54:41

Yeah, I would agree with that. So , you know, I guess in, in kind of summing it up , um, you know, I, I see for example, the need to develop my own theory of change to , to be that change as Gandhi had alluded to , whereas as , as , as commonly, as he's commonly quoted, as having said , becoming that change i n embodying it and seeing the outer world, the inner world a s being reflective of the outer world, u m, and then learning to identify the changes we see right now, the things that c ould b e a structural racism or, y ou k now, a loss of democracy. W e began to also work at becoming the kind of person who can embody, that equanimity, that, u m , a bility to truly become a global citizen beyond prejudice. Um , a n d, and at some point it b e gin t o remember, we 're n ot only a member of this, we're a member of the entire cosmos, and we scarcely have the ability to comprehend that, yo u k n ow, but we're one of a billion planets, a one of a billion stars. An d w hat seems to be an endless, endless universe.

Laura Lee:
55:54

I don't feel insignificant when I contemplate the vastness of the universe. I feel excited that I'm a part of something so magnificent and so miraculous and, and so mysterious in it and truly all inspiring. Um, and I think , Tony h ole astrophysicists, Tony H all's message to us has been, u m, and Cheryl S herrilyn M oros astronomer has been look at that amazing sky and the universe and contemplate its vastness and see your place within it. And doesn't that very act. Brian make you feel larger that you are a part of that, that, that is speaking to you, that that is really the, your ancestors, the stars w ere made of Stardust. Those stars are our ancestors. So, I mean, it's so exciting and truly, you know, we're having this exercise for Thanksgiving, a gratitude and yeah, there's benefits to gratitude is supposed to increase happiness. It's supposed to make your brain healthier. It's a nice exercise to do. It's psychologically helpful for mental health, but I think gratitude is just a piece of the download from the universe when we embrace it. And it embraces us, you can't help but be anything, but be in gratitude and be in that universal love. And I think that is what shapes us inspires us, changes. Our story informs our story. I don't think it just can be from the intellect. I think it needs to be from the whole body and to honor the body and the body wisdom and all those emotions and all those wonderful biochemicals that come up that support trans States and emotional , um, positivity and gratitude and love and all that. Um, I just think being in that is part of that journey. Um, just such a big degree. I mean, it's always taught to us this kids be a good girl, be a good boy, do the right thing, you know, that stick kind of thing, but really when you unfold into the universe, there's no other choice. It, it shapes you and evolves you into that. I don't know . What do you,

Brian Tucker:
58:23

No, I think , you know , that reminds me of Antoine, little Prince and, you know , the Fox giving the wisdom to the little Prince that , um, you know, what is essential is invisible to the eye is only with the heart that one can see truly what is w what is essential? You know , it reminds me that, you know , it's through that vehicle of our heart, our embodied experience, it's not necessarily through our thoughts about the universe, about a connected feeling , um, a way of experiencing the ourselves as an embodiment of the universe, the universe becoming conscious in our, in our being , um, and beginning to identify, what are the words now, what are the new images that you can fashion for which there could be a too sensitive ocean, you know, can I be devoted to an intelligent evolving universe and Brian swim and Thomas Berry and others describe it in such eloquent terms. How can, how can we in to feel such an intimate connection with that animating source that we know is behind this? Mister is vast universe. So your words, remind me of those thoughts

Laura Lee:
59:41

Where you putting the little Prince there.

Speaker 5:
59:43

Yes. Little friends.

Laura Lee:
59:45

Yeah. Antoine De Saint-Exupury. He wrote such a beautiful book, also "Wind, Sand and Stars". I just want to recommend that other book as well, his journey traveling as a pilot around the world and his observations. Yeah. Such gift. So, the universe has its ways . I mean, it, it's just a loving universe, just exuding love. Isn't that amazing, we are it's children and it just enfolds us and embraces us ….what an ecstatic experience. Well , you know what I have to, I also also say that I often call , um, the, the ecstatic transporters, because you can be in and out of a trans experience and what an hour. I mean, it's just made, you can have a peak experience on your first time out. We see it over and over. And I will say that it's really for the modern age, right. Goodman gave us a formula that really works for a modern age of short attention span. And we're all time-crunched , and it's easy and accessible. It is truly universal. And it's just out there. That's why we're just like, throw the doors open here. You want it? Come get it. Here it is. Um, you don't have to spend 20 years. You don't have to be a monk. You don't have to forgive. You don't have to give up all your other, your life and be celibate or go live in a mountain top, or go live in a cave, or do any of that. You can integrate it into your modern world. Um, that's true. Democracy. That's true. Self-empowerment, that's true. Um, gifting for everyone. That's true. Universality. There's no secret language. There's no, yeah , it was just , yeah.

Brian Tucker:
1:01:36

I want to add to your imagery because , um , you know, you're reminding me Laura's , as we speak of , being able to comprehend, you know, f rom, from the global, t hat of cultures. And I d raw from the Hindu culture, their ability to comprehend not only the loving aspect of the universe, but also the f ears, the dark aspect of the universe a nd, and, and recognizing, you know, we, u m, our, our evolution on this planet has seen rather tumultuous times t here h ave been, you know, kind of the wiping out of speaking, there's been any number of catastrophes throughout history and remarkably d evolve and, a nd humans have, but it's always fascinating to me that like within, u m, Hindu practice, for example, there can be such an honoring of t he, the dark goddess mother Kali, for example, a form of the goddess Durga. U m, and they can literally, y ou K ali as being the one who is responsible for sort of our finality, the ending of times, or, or even our own, our own demise, t hat they can honor her and worship her and know that she's our loving mother. So even with the recognition, it's not to gloss over the fact that we live in a tremendously wonderful, mysterious, but there is also real suffering and real pain and hardship that people are going through. Um, and even in , in that, like all of our great faith , here's the key , just to have hope and to believe in the [inaudible] power that somehow our souls are thinking perhaps the best arrangement for our lives, maybe the, the experiences, if they could be viewed from that , um, larger, more cosmic perspective. Um, they might, we might be able to S to be able to have a new sense of gratitude. There is a movie as a child that I was very impressed by called the incredible shrinking man. And it featured , um, a story of saga of a man who had passed through mysteriously, a cloud of radioactive gas. And he was the set with this, like the challenger job, you know, a dwindling of his body into tiny size. And it just seemed like such a sad, sad story. As I watched it as a kid. And, you know, here he is fighting. Um, finally at the end, he's finding a spider with a needle to have, to be able to survive and exist. And finally, at the end, he's sort of examining himself in relation to the cosmos and looking up at the stars and seeing himself. And in that he finds his comfort as being finally small enough to pay attention to something so immense around him. I've always taken that to be a hopeful movie because of that particular perspective that he was able to reach. You know, he, he, he has a while. He may be a small part. He's part of this unfolding fabric , that cares as much for him as it does that spider a s, as, as it did all of life.

Laura Lee:
1:04:48

I'm so glad you brought that up because , um, the lessons that the universe wants to give us in this trance state are so often about life death. You, you are stripped away your flesh, your bones, you disappear, you turn to dust, you evaporate into the void, you turn to mist and you float away, you disappear and then you incubate and then you're reborn. So that is such a common that we have, or that you experienced some intense pain as a energy block, then physically we'll then push through like, like she has a , point's been pressed, you know, Dell, it releases, or you have all this emotional, just huge pain and regret suffering, washed through you. And then it releases, am I releasing this on behalf of mother earth? It didn't feel like my pain, but there it was. And then it resolves. So you are put through these cycles. And so the next time somebody asks about that, I'm going to quote you, well, we need to embrace all of the universe also aspects. It's all our teacher, it's all the mother. It's just the cycles of the universe. It's I always likened to back to the hero journey that when life got difficult and it wasn't of my own doing, but the road suddenly got very Rocky. And , um, there were just immense challenges that just put you through your dark night of the soul and there you were. And you're like, how did I get here? It always comforted me that here was the, the road through Rocky through no fault of my own. I didn't make a stupid move. It just is. And those are my lessons. And I know that many, many, many countless heroes have tread this path before me and shown me the way to go through. And I know that I can get through this as well. I think that life isn't fully lift without those dark nights of the soul that we must face right there in the hero journey right there, and star Wars. Um , and it's comforting to know that, Hey, this is normal. This is just what it is. And you can get through it just as the heroes before you have done. Yep . Yeah . I agree with you entirely.

Brian Tucker:
1:07:09

It's been particularly, you know, all of us are living with a daily reminder , f or losing loved ones or relatives to COVID. U m, we're, we're living through a period of enormous change. U m, a nd, and, and to begin to understand how to emerge from that stronger, to a period in which we can begin to thrive again, o n this planet and pe rhaps in a more cooperative way tha n a more collaborative way than we have been, p r eviously, perhaps as terrible as a pandemic is perhaps it is a trigger who us learning a new way of being with each other. And, you know, we're all aspiring to, to get that message to really embo dy it.

Laura Lee:
1:07:54

Well, if you, if we all needed to say, go to our room and do some introspection and some self-examination, I think mother nature has found a very good way of doing it. Go to your room. You run. Yeah, you're a on timeout . So I think we've done that. I want to ask you, you were telling us a bit before about an experiment that we did with divination. We have in our Canada postures , several that are just beautifully known for divination, not predicting the future, but rather giving us new insight to better prepare us to face our future, to have more tools in our tool belt to draw another hero journey metaphor, or the mentors come up and give you a gift of insight or something you're going to need along the way , for the challenges that you need to meet ahead. So, u m, you, we did this, interesting experiment as a group where we all asked, what do we need right now, individually and collectively not only to survive what's ahead, but to thrive. please give us some insight. You had a particularly interesting, t r ans experience. Did you want to t el l us a bit about that?

Brian Tucker:
1:09:12

Yeah, it was, it was very relevant. And , um , I'm glad that we, as a group , experimented in this, I think of it as a bit of a growing edge here i n, in the work of, of, of, of the recent sessions that we've had. U m, you know, the t rans was particularly helpful for me because I, I saw elements that have a ppeared in other, other trances. They were things, u m, such as, gathering, k ind of bundle of elements, like, r e presented by a snake, a squirrel, a bat, a no v e list cha mber, a fr o g. I saw these various collective of, of animals and, an d, ar t ifacts coming together almost as if they were in a medicine bundle. Um, I sa w myself in the context of a whole, lik e a, a c i rcular hole in the ground, almost like the Kiva and there being like light coming through that. And with the snake, I thought about what needed to be shed. Like I had skin that was shedding like a snake shed with a frog. I felt myself , um, like a tadpole almost with a tail. And that was somehow developing into the things I would need to be able to swim. Um, you know, the, the legs of the frog that I would need to be able to swim. Um, I had the sense of being like in a cocoon , um, as if I was in a stage of hibernation, a form of formative period and all of the gave me a sense of hope not to be disparaging about a period of, of , um, transformation stage, almost a developmental stage where some new capacity would be developed. Like a tadpole has to wonder what's coming next. You know, Caterpillar has no idea what it means to enter into that cocoon. so those kinds of images came to me. U m, and then also the Nautilus was important because I felt myself spiraling backwards, like in the chambers of a N autilus. And I thought about how mysterious it is that that chamber Do nal i s actually grows an d a c cretion o f calcium of i t grows th at s hell, but it does it in such a precise way without having to know that th e, the rhythm of the universe is expressed and all it has to do is just grow. So that trans ki nd o f g ave me a hopefulness to trust in that archetype, the same archetype that gives rise to the Nautilus chamber, u m , t hat, th at t he proper vehicle, the proper environment is being fashioned. Even if my c onscious mind can't apprehended. And then finally I felt myself to be standing among great trees, and I felt those of us doing the tr ans w o rk a t n ight, wh ere l ike elders in the forest, g reat trees that were planted in the earth. So I, I felt a certain power, like perhaps a forest. Um, i s n 't re ally stronger because it communicates all the trees are in communication with each other. They're all standing there very solidly rooted to the earth, b u t in a collaborative network. Um, so I, I took strength that there were other people in the tran ce tha t were working on the same question. And I thought that was hope ful to me. There are pro bably people around the world working this question as well.

Laura Lee:
1:12:30

You are truly , mytho poet there. Br ian, I so appreciate your interpretation, u m , o f that. Yeah. So very, very much. Um , I wa nt t o a lso say that to me because people ask us, well, are you really asking humanity to turn back? Like, no, I'm saying that we need to refer back to the wisdom of the ancients. They survived. Hey, th ey, they survived and gave us a l ife. Did they not, and delivered us a world, t hat we, that was pretty intact before we, u m , m e ssed it about, but to refer back to go forward. And that is something that the Nautilus shell is such a symbol of the Fibonacci series and sacred geometry where seq uences th e one, two, three, five, eight. So you say, okay, I'm three. I look back to two, I add that. And then I get five I'm at five, I loo k ba ck one step there's three. I add that and there becomes eight. And so it's proportions , um, really refer back to the past, to know how to go forward and expand in this coherent way. Um, that nature refer self-referral to go to go forward. It's such a beautiful metaphor for the justification for looking to the past and the ancestors for some wisdom, some shapes , some, some clue about what to carry forward and bring into the next generation and the future that stays on track with nature. Um, I guess so I like to cite that you brought up the Nautilus shell is something in your vision. Yeah . Um, yeah, can't really abandon our ancestors and throughout history. We've had every culture honor, those ancestors, except our own , um, where, where I wonder about the inevitability of where we're at, you know, when you look at the story arc of humanity, right. And you go, okay, I see that we really became fully conscious humans. I guess we can trace it back 300. Now they're pushing it back even further 300,000 years. And then we go forward and yeah, there was climate change. So at the end of the last ice Sage , um, we saw that's where the caves of France were shuttered up. That's where the climate changed. That's where the hunters and their lifestyle , um, had to evolve. Um, and then that gave the possibility for agriculture that gave us the possibility to populate with her, then glaciers , um, traveled by boat, populate the world , um, and look what we've done with it, our brains, our minds, the capacity for fire and technology and melting metal and , evolving this and putting, writing together and the way that our brains work w ith symbol, just the story of writing a nd how writing evolved is, is w hat, wow, how else could it be? But, u m, you just, do you think it's inevitable that we ended up here where we are, and do you think it's inevitable that we s mashed against the brick wall and blow up, or do you think it's inevitable that we save ourselves because in our hero journey, in our popular mythology, u m, the clock h ouse to tick the bomb is ticking t ill the last second that we can push the button to stop it. Um , before we blow ourselves up, that's what the hero does. He has to choose the very last second to avert danger , um, can only be that apparently, and we're almost there, people we're almost there. So what do you think what's your sense?

Brian Tucker:
1:16:31

I have to start in a little more , um, from, from a more basic position, which is, u m, having gratitude or this day, and having gratitude, having gratitude that t he, the life force t hat is within us, you know, b ring us into conversation and it is concluded into a lovely evening as well. And we'll resolve again in the, in the emergence of a Dawn. I don't know how many d awns into the future w e, we are f orecast to have as a species, but, u m, I find a certain joy in coming back to the moment and staying present with that. And I kind of have to believe that that's where the power of change is going to come from. U m, I really enjoy, I appreciate the role that science has the role of big history, David Christian and, L ee Lo w ell Gu stafson, and the whole international big history association work of cosmology, the work of the quantum physics. Um, there's so many really remarkable things that are our , um, Western mind has been able to craft. I'm also deeply, deeply appreciative of the work of the ancients. Um, any encounter I have with indigenous wisdom, with the mythologies of sacred traditions , um, which are better called really as sacred scripture, rather than mythologies , um, mythology being the term we used for those of us outside those traditions. But I totally believe in our capacity as humans, we have access to inner resources. We have access now to the symbolic consciousness that has been developing. I have great faith in our ability to remain creative. Um, it's not to say though that we don't face some really , um, monumental challenges. So from that point of view, as a human, I can only really just kind of deal with a good day. And ,

Laura Lee:
1:18:34

I'll tell you where my optimism comes from. So my optimism is , well, t he, the lesser part of that is our son is middle-aged. And when it becomes old age, they say it will, supernova will go into a red W harf and explode, and it will take out the solar system and everything around it. So maybe it is such a long journey for humans to get beyond the reach of the dying exploding sun i n our future, that we need to start now to, you know, space X and go to the moon and Mars and colonize and start figuring out how to do that a nd get beyond our solar system. I s ay that practical terms, but I really think I 'm a more cosmic t erm i n a truer term that we are not unique, that we are just one expression of life and its variant forms that we represent all of life. We are the same formula, the same evolutionary package as all of life out there. And then it's everywhere out there in the universe. They do find the , imprint of water out there. They find the signal of DNA out there. They know it's out there. U m, I'm a fan of, panspermia saying that the, seeds of life are spread by co mets a s they go by fly by a planet and water droplets and seeds of life and where it sprouts, where it can. And it 's j ust has to be abundant out there because not every will wi ll m ake it. Um , s o it's just the same principles that we see in life with a se ed p o d e xploding. It's out there in a c osmic level, the same intelligence that we have the same, u m , m ind that we have. It is a gift of nature. It is nature living through us. It is nature expressing and , um, playing in displaying , in all of its v ariance and all of its experiments in all of i t. It's doing i ts scifi thing on us. W e're just one of his imagination. W hat i f i ts dreams and it's just playing out there and we're not that unique and that whether it's in this blueprint of a human body on planet earth i n the 20th, 21st century, or if it's some other form on some other planet, which I'm sure is all out there, life will survive. And we're just life. U m, strip away our, our human identity. We a re life and we're just a drop in a vast ocean and it continues. So I really have no worries in the larger sense. U m, and I feel like our creator has got it under control. W e're just being put through the rollercoaster ride. Why? Because it's thrilling because it's fun because it's what we do because it's just, y ou, y ou just g ot t o embrace it all. And there's a reason we watch horror movies. It's thrilling. T here's a reason we watch the heartwarming. It's thrilling. We just need to hit all spectrums of the whole, I mean, all the gamut. That's what you got. Folks. You don't get to avoid a nyone piece of it. You get it all. Hallelujah. Thank the heavens. Thank our lucky stars. We get the whole package and we probably have an eternity t o, to play. And so I'm not in a hurry. I'm just enjoying the ride. And I think it's all okay. I'm okay with it. That's my o ptimum.

Brian Tucker:
1:22:00

Yes. That's a beautiful place to come from or late .

Laura Lee:
1:22:05

Yeah. Stay out of the mud. Do your job. Try to ride the crest of the wave. Don't get pummeled underneath it. It's not very comfortable there, but Hey, you've got the wind at your back. You've got all the universe they're rooting for you teaching you inspiring. You go for it. We'll see what we can do

Speaker 5:
1:22:23

Daring way to live, to live one's life and move forward.

Laura Lee:
1:22:26

Yeah. It's best Lyft as an adventure. I say so. Yup . Um, have you gotten everything that you wanted to say, because I know you are well-prepared I did not prepare. I just came with a few ideas, but you are so well-prepared and I honor you for that, Brian , and I honor all the good research that you do and all the wide reading that you do. And , um, so I just want to make sure before we conclude that you have everything here, you wanted to say,

Brian Tucker:
1:22:54

I think we covered a lot. Uh Loralee I appreciate the , the breadth of the discussion and I look forward to, you know, further furthering the dialogue .

Laura Lee:
1:23:03

So what should we talk about next? Surprise me.

Brian Tucker:
1:23:09

Um, you know , I'd like to, I'd like to stray into the realm of us, you know, social action and where we might begin to see some leverage points , in our daily life. ca use I think we 're, we're talking rather large themes today and, u m , i t'd be helps to ground this in our practical experience, u m , t o begin to understand, you know, what unique, we ll, maybe this is part of the dividend To ry p osture you're suggesting, y ou know, to understand what is our particular role and, and, and helping to be the agents of change that we know in our hearts we can be. Um, so I would love to dialogue more on that wit h yo u, future sessions.

Laura Lee:
1:23:51

You know, I really think that the, and I'll say this in mythic terms, allow me to speak in mythic terms. I'm an English lit major. There's no other language that I have. Um, I know you share this language to Brian , so I enjoy so much talking with you, but I believe that the universe has a lot to say to us at this time, because I've noticed in the 25 years that we've done this work personally, what is it? 26, 27, whatever. And the 20 years that we've taught this and intensively have put on workshop after workshop after workshop for the last 10 years at the Institute headquarters that has as its directors, that we are seeing so much spontaneous divination, even in our postures, that aren't [inaudible] necessarily though there's no hard and fast lines between the categories. We're seeing people come up with these messages just spontaneously. We always say that spirit will speak to you exactly what you need to hear. And that's why we don't project. We don't imagine we just receive the vision. Um, just allow us to receive as an empty vessel, the vision that wants to be there. And then we run with it and we're off and running in the alternate reality, but we see so much , um, inspiration, soothing , assurance. I t's all okay. Deep insight into, such as you describe, but it just is bubbling up with, e veryone's trances spontaneously. So I truly believe that the universe has a lot to say to us right now, pertinent to getting through these, i n teresting times as you put them. And, um , so it's just a matter of paying attention and trusting. Um, but it all seems very positive that it's a call to action. I think that in the hero jou rney, the first step is you hear the call to action. You hear the call to adventure, you hear the call to adventure, and it seems that we're turning a leaf to a new page and there's a new adventure afoo t for us. Doesn't it, it feels that way. There's a new adventure for humanity. And, um ,

Brian Tucker:
1:26:05

It does, I can feel that excitement as well. And I see them reflective in the work of you, you and Paul are doing. And , um, you know, there are other similar organizations that see the excitement of that work or the unfolding human , s ource for all of us. So yeah, there's a lot to look forward to.

Laura Lee:
1:26:25

I just have so many times in my life, I have felt this call where life just pops along, you know, great. But it's like, get ready, get ready, get ready, get ready for what? Get ready, tie up your loose ends. Get your work done. Clear the space. Um, just all those signals, pack your bags, get ready. You're going on a ride and you don't know what it is. And I think that is like following the breadcrumbs through the forest, you go , okay, I'm getting ready. I'm getting ready. Just fill this cricketing inside. You have this kind of sense of excitement getting ready. And then that the first goal appears, okay, I'll , I'll go to square one. Oh, I finally Rogers square one. Now what I kind of see this distant glow on the horizon , k inda know what the, what the end game is, but I don't really see it clearly, but then I'm s howing the next square. Oh, okay. That's where the next footstep is t hat lights up somehow. Okay. A rrive there. A nd only when I arrived there, does the next step happen? There's a sense of trust that is involved. T hat I don't have to know all the complete journey. I don't have to see every detail, but I have a sense of trust. That's guiding me that North star. It seems to shine your path just a little ahead of you and maybe the glow a nd the distance so that, you know, there's a beautiful destiny awaiting you. I don't know how it works. I would say that those kinds of, of, notations that we can make on the journey might be valuable because we are kind of leaping into an abyss in a sense. But if you followed your inner journey and you know, that sense to recognize that still small voice within this guiding you, you're willing to take the leaps because you've learned an d e a rned t he trust. So maybe that's part of it. I don't know, but tending th is i n ner g arden, I believe over the years is going to prove very much a valuable sk illset f or navigating the future. We need to listen. Yeah.

Brian Tucker:
1:28:36

Beautiful. Beautiful. Beautifully said, thank you. Thank you .

Laura Lee:
1:28:39

Hey , this has been so fun and I so appreciate you, Brian, and all that you bring to the table. It's been a pleasure. I appreciate that. you want to mention your blog? Ar e w e going to post your bl og s o people can keep up with it?

Brian Tucker:
1:28:53

You are welcome to post my blog. Um, I would love to dialogue with folks on, on the , um, topics That are being introduced there. So , it's i nter s pirituality, b ut org. And if you're at all intrigued to, to think more on these topics, I w ould, I w ould love you to leave a comment. And, u m, perhaps we can d ialogue further

Laura Lee:
1:29:17

In truck. I N T R a

Brian Tucker:
1:29:19

E R I N T E R, spiritual

Laura Lee:
1:29:22

Inter spirituality.org because you're integrating so many , l ike connecting points and nodules between various spiritual paths.

Brian Tucker:
1:29:31

We try to honor the path and many of us have found this to be the case that our birth traditions , um , are so well traveled alongside our exploration of other traditions. Um , it , the spirituality is something fluid in our lives. We call that inter as we do interdisciplinary we're , we're well rooted in our traditions, but we're able to learn from the wisdom of other great world traditions interspersed throughout.

Laura Lee:
1:29:59

It's like we're the wolfed and the weft of the fabric that we weave. It's almost like our little magic carpet that we go off and , navigate the universe with that. W e're, you know, our worldview and what we, how we constructed i s such an important tool, such an important endeavor and such a sacred activity for ourselves. But I think that's the sense that I get when I hear you describe the inner spirituality of it, inner spirituality.org. Did you say

Brian Tucker:
1:30:28

Your spirituality.org.org?

Laura Lee:
1:30:30

And then I also want to mention Cuyamungue Institute and you'll find lots of events and activities and articles and maybe some blogs and Facebook and all that good stuff there too. So thank you for listening until next time that has been Brian Tucker , mytho, poet, and author, and social change agent and I'm Lauralee of the cream Cuyamungue Institute. Thanks for listening until next time ] .